944 S2 belts question

[xenon]

The car I'm looking at buying has had all the belts, tensioners and rollers replaced 8000 miles ago, at an Official Porsche Centre no less, at a cost of about £500.
For the sake of argument, say I bought this car and 5000 miles down the line the belt snapped. Would I have any redress on the OPC for possibly not tensioning the belts or in someway ballsing up or would I be left high and dry?
If I had the belts changed again myself, would that offer any protection anyway?

I'm nervous about belts - why can't they have had a duplex chain? [8|]

How much of an issue is 'the dreaded belts issue'?

 

[PJS917]

How long ago were the belts changed? If the belts are less than 12 months old and re tensioned as
advised with OPC documents then you maybe have comeback, over 12 months your on your own.
I have just bought a new to me S2, the belts were changed less than 2000 miles ago, but it was 2 1/2 years ago so
I did what I always do when I buy a new car I changed them. Then I know when they were done, what belts
were fitted and when they will need doing again.

Belts are fine as long as you change them as you should, me every 3 years or 30k miles. A little over the top
maybe, but cheaper than failure.

 

[xenon]

Belts were changed in November 06 and 8000 miles ago. OPC with all documentation / receipt is present.

 

[nickgardner]

speaking as a lawyer strictly you have little/no come back on the OPC if anything did go wrong - their contract and the warranty etc they give is with the person who paid for the work not you. In practical terms if a belt did fail you'd be thrown back on their goodwill as to whether they would accept responsibility - and on a 944 at whatever age it is I'd be surprised if they would. In practice though if you've got the paperwork and it all ties up so you are sure it was done I'd have thought you could assume it was done and proceed accordingly.

 

[dlknight]

Were the tensioner rollers and idler rollers done at the same time ? Sometimes these appear to be overlooked by a lot of garages including some independents. Its no use having a nice new belt if your tensioner roller siezes after 2,000 miles.

Also with an S2, one cam is driven by the belt and the other driven from the first via a chain. OPC's don't have the chain listed as a service item so it may not have been checked, the chain is tensioned via a hydraulic tensioner which has a plastic slipper on the end, this can also wear. Also the teeth on the cams can wear and although I have never seen this myself have heard via the forum that it can be quite common. As I understand it the chain stretches over time and the plastic slipper becomes worn, this then accelerates wear of the teeth on the cams and can lead to loss of teeth, broken cam chain etc.

This topic comes up almost every week so you can probably find most of the usual answers using the search

Best of luck, your doing right checking on the forum take your time and don't rush into anything.

Regards

Dave K.



Dave K.

 

[cococola]

Usually dealers tend to have a 12 months parts and labour warranty,however you would need to check to see if this would be transfered to a new owner[8|]

 

[xenon]

Thanks all. As I say, it was an OPC that did the work (not an indy) and I do remember seeing on the invoice that the rollers and tensioners had been done too. As for the chain that links the two cams, I couldn't say. I'll have to have another look.

 

[zcacogp]

Just a bit of an aside, but why are people so jumpy about cam belts on 944's? I appreciate the damage that can be done when one lets go, but the design is no worse (or better) than the design on many other cars and almost identical to the design of the Mk2 and Mk3 16v Golfs, so why the excitement?

I paid to have my cam belt and rollers changed just after I bought my S2, last year, but have to say that next time I'll be doing it myself. Parts are expensive enough without forking out for someone else to wield the spanner on your behalf as well ...


Oli.

 

[xenon]

Fair comment Oli, which is why I asked. People do seem jumpy about it but there are, as you say, plenty of other interference engines about. I still don't know why they didn't use a duplex chain. Noise is not really an issue and they only give up if seriously neglected and left to lash about untensioned. Speaking of tension, I was also led to believe that a 944 belt change was not a DIY job as a special tensioning tool is needed??

 

[dlknight]

ORIGINAL: xenon

Fair comment Oli, which is why I asked. People do seem jumpy about it but there are, as you say, plenty of other interference engines about. I still don't know why they didn't use a duplex chain. Noise is not really an issue and they only give up if seriously neglected and left to lash about untensioned. Speaking of tension, I was also led to believe that a 944 belt change was not a DIY job as a special tensioning tool is needed??

People are jumpy about them because they can and do break, my 944S belts and tensioners were due to be replaced in June this year after 35k miles since the last change. Only one morning (in May) when I attempted to start the car to go to work I turned the key and the car wouldn't start. I think it was a tensioner that failed on mine. But I would always trust it to a specialist as the correct tensioning of the belts is critical, so that the tensioners don't have to much load causing accelerated wear. There are also other things a specialist will check when changing tensioners and belts, such as the water pump and camshaft seals, and of course the cam chain, tensioner and slipper as mentioned above.

Regards

Dave K.

 

[xenon]

did the engine turning over do any valve damage?

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: dlknight

ORIGINAL: xenon
Fair comment Oli, which is why I asked. People do seem jumpy about it but there are, as you say, plenty of other interference engines about. I still don't know why they didn't use a duplex chain. Noise is not really an issue and they only give up if seriously neglected and left to lash about untensioned. Speaking of tension, I was also led to believe that a 944 belt change was not a DIY job as a special tensioning tool is needed??

People are jumpy about them because they can and do break, my 944S belts and tensioners were due to be replaced in June this year after 35k miles since the last change. Only one morning (in May) when I attempted to start the car to go to work I turned the key and the car wouldn't start. I think it was a tensioner that failed on mine. But I would always trust it to a specialist as the correct tensioning of the belts is critical, so that the tensioners don't have to much load causing accelerated wear. There are also other things a specialist will check when changing tensioners and belts, such as the water pump and camshaft seals, and of course the cam chain, tensioner and slipper as mentioned above.

They can and do break - sure, but they can and do break on other cars as well, with the same results, but other people aren't as jumpy about changing them as people on here seem to be.

Tensioner - yes, there are various specialised tensioning tools around, but several people say that the tensioner on the later cars (which is sprung) will adjust it to the correct tension, thus alleviating the need for the special tool. I had my belts done by my indie, and discussed the job in detail with him after it was done, and decided I wouldn't be visiting to have them done next time. I did, however, take it back to him to have the tension measured 1500 miles later, and he didn't use a tool to do the tension. He applied the time-honoured "twish and push with your thumb method" and declared it to be fine ... I of course had a good twist and push as well, realised that ideal tension was pretty much the same as ideal tension on a Golf (and every other car I have ever worked on) and re-inforced my view that I will do it myself next time.

Sure, an indie can check other things like water pumps and camshaft oil seals as well, but I can spot a leaking water pump or oil seal, and don't need to pay someone £65 + VAT to do so for me.

I am arguing hard here, but my underlying viewpoint is that this is simple mechanics, not black magic, and I happen to be moderately adept at simple mechanics. Therefore I don't see why I should pay someone else to do what I can easily do myself.


Oli.

 

[dlknight]

ORIGINAL: xenon

did the engine turning over do any valve damage?

Yes, three valves were damaged.

Dave K.

 

[xenon]

How much did it cost to fix, Dave, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[pauljmcnulty]

They can and do break - sure, but they can and do break on other cars as well, with the same results, but other people aren't as jumpy about changing them as people on here seem to be.

I agree, Oli. The difference is that very few of our cars do "proper" mileage. When asked to value a car, or discuss someone's intended purchase, the conversation nearly always goes:

"When was the last belt change"

"A few thousand miles ago"

"When?"

""1987"

I exaggerate a little, for comic effect [8|], but you get the point! It's one of those things that people are often unaware of, but the results of a failure are going to need a repair that could potentially mean a car gets scrapped. It can't hurt to bang on about it until people listen!

It seems to be the same with rust. You'd think that people would realise that a 20-year-old steel car might have some corrosion, but a large proportion of owners still think that "it's a fully galvanised shell" so refuse to believe there can be an issue. Then, the car fails an MOT and they start moaning that no-one ever mentioned it before.

 

[xenon]

OK Paul, bang on to me then as I'm a newbie and haven't made my purchase yet!

What about rust?

The one I've just seen seemed very solid and the paintwork was immaculate. I checked the cills, inner wings and so on - anything else I should look at specifically on an S2?

 

[zcacogp]

Paul,

Hmm, I see your point. I guess that my viewpoint is skewed in that I have never been able to afford to keep a car that is not driven regularly (apart from once, and that's a painful story!) Hence I would always rate the life of a cambelt in mileage, not years. Which is fine as long as I never do afford a car which I don't use regularly!

However, the paranoia seems to come in two halves - 1. Paranoia about how every S2 needs to have the belts replaced every month (or sooner) (I'm exaggerating as well BTW), and 2. Paranoia about how hard belts and rollers are to fit, and how they really need to be done by specialists with specialised tools. The specialised tool (singular) is a tensioner, which it seems is not necessary, and specialists are just people with more experience and big price tags. And how did they get that experience? Yup, by calling themselves "specialists" and charging loads ...

How many 944 enthusiasts do you know who work on their own cars? Lots ... (it seems to be one of the appeals of the car - performance, and yet simple enough to work on yourself using 'average' facilities and skills.) But how many enthusiasts do you know who change their own belts? I think I have come across two. They are cam belts ... it can't be *that* hard! (Famous last words, I am aware!)

Xenon - now rust IS something that keeps me awake at night. Partially because I can't do anything about it (never treated it successfully) and partially because it seems that 944's are good at hiding it for a long time, until it breaks through badly. Look for photos of Jim Hearndon's car (TR7V8 on here) to see a nasty, nasty example. And that looked like a good, tidy car on brief inspection.


Oli.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

OK Paul, bang on to me then as I'm a newbie and haven't made my purchase yet!

What about rust?

The one I've just seen seemed very solid and the paintwork was immaculate. I checked the cills, inner wings and so on - anything else I should look at specifically on an S2?

Hi Ian,

Most of the areas have been covered if you look back over the previous threads, but to summarise:

Minor and less common points - windscreen surround, rear hatch pins, door bottoms (rarely), rear side glass surrounds, boot wells, plus of course anywhere that the car has been damaged over the years.

Serious concerns - cills (pop out the black vent in the door pillar and have a look inside), bottoms of front wings, front of rear wheel arch, and underneath around rear suspension mounting points.

S2 and Turbo are often worse because of the black plastic trim along the bottom edge trapping muck.

There are plenty of good cars out there, but a number are suffering badly. Whether that's down to sea air, damage, poor maintenance I don't know, but I'd think twice about a seriously scruffy example.

Good luck with the hunt!

 

[xenon]

Thanks Paul & Oli. []

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

Just a bit of an aside, but why are people so jumpy about cam belts on 944's?

People are jumpy because they do break and when they do you are looking at the possibility of several thouand pounds to rebuild the engine. In my 8 years of anorakness with 944s I am guessing I hear about 3-4 belt failures every year via Titanic or UK forums, and that's just in our small online community []

You cannot keep comparing this to a Golf engine as there are over 24 million Golfs made to date (Google figures in 2005), but there were a total of 160 thousand 944s. If a Golf engine dies and can't be rebuilt you can pop down to your local scrappy and probably have a choice, not the same with a 944 engine (as I know from experience [8|])

Yes we go on about belts all the time but for most people if their belts break it will be time to throw away the car and we are all here to try and stop that happening