944 Turbo S Engine Rebuild Thread

[924Srr27l]

Roger - Thank you for throwing your fingers at the keyboard to elucidate me with your opinion. I genuinely don’t care what you think, but I do appreciate the length and barely contained angst of your posts. PMSL as the kids say, like shooting fish in a barrel getting a bite from you.

Could be those Front Semi Budget Kumho PS71 Tyres also, (it's a bit fighty) they are quite hard compound (320 Treadwear) and the sidewalls go harder with age unless they are fairly new?
If you try a Michelin pilot you'll get better ride quality / grip and less figity as their compliance is of the softest of all the brands. u'll also find a 225 is actually has a wider (SW) Section width @ 239mm

R

 

[PSH]

The best thing about boost control being undertaken by the ECU is that the Overboost protection is still enabled too.

Agreed...Vitesse MAF+ has full control of overboost, as I stated, I currently have mine set at 1.5 BAR

 

[Dan944t]

excuse my crap knowlege on these units as i still run a standard ecu with wayne’s live map and unfortunately a standard AFM ( i sold my Vitess maff yonks ago ,.......can you set boost by gear on both yours? as this is what i want to do in near future

Daniel

 

[Eldavo]

Yes, the APEXI does boost by gear by applying a modifier so you’d set your boost profile for 3rd gear say and then apply a reduction in 1st and 2nd (as I did with mine). Or set a lower boost profile onto MapB for, e.g., wet weather.


VEMS allows boost by gear too but I haven’t bothered with it just yet. Maybe when I up the boost. Or maybe it’s the great brand new tyres that I have that HawkEye incorrectly identified.


I actually have my APEXI AVC-R set up ready to go if you want to buy an EBC.

 

[PSH]

Hi Dan

The Apexi can set boost per gear, it can selflearn too, I would assume VEMS to fo the same
The only minus point about Apexi is the poor instruction, or should I say, I found it poor.

 

[Eldavo]

Nah, the self learning is the dodgy fuzzy logic I was on about.


My Lexus ES has lane keep assist, the camera picks up the edges of the lane and keeps the car centred in it around corners, whatever. The first car I had it on was a Skoda Octavia vRS, when it got too close to the edge of the lane it would correct and send you back the other way, until it got to the opposite edge and then overcorrect to send you back again, and so on until it switched off before it caused an accident.


The Apexi self learning is like the Skoda in that it will massively ramp up the duty cycle whilst aiming for your target boost, overshoot by more than you’ll be comfortable with and then cut boost sharply, rinse and repeat leas aggressively until it gets there . . . which it never will as your throttle input will have changed by then.


I’ll agree with PSH that the manual takes a bit of decoding (I can only guess that Google Translate wasn’t as effective back then either) but luckily I had a Japanese Car Specialist set mine up and take me through it. The first thing he did was turn self learning off!

 

[Dan944t]

so i take it these are stand alone ecu s that have replaced the standard ?

i need to save up for this next step as i need the maff along with this to move to the next level as i’m a boy on the dark when it comes to the tech side of getting the lap top out abd going trr he rough the charts , but i really want to learn it as if like to set up my own car myself or tweak let’s say .... no i’d like to set it up myself ,..why am i lying![]

i wasn’t looking for one just yet david but send me a pm or whatsapp and let me know what your after for it.

Daniel

 

[blade7]

Blade - Boost control was relatively straightforward to set up but did need a bit of playing and logging as the PID wasn’t quite as good as I expected. Mind you I never found the similar "fuzzy logic” on the Apexi AVC-R that reliable either. The advantage of data logging and then filling the lookup table is repeatability - if you need any pointers on setting yours up just ask.

Cheers, will do. Think I remember which box I packed it all in, when I moved house. Just the MOT and the belts/rollers to do this month first. Bought the belts etc 2 or 3 years ago too.

 

[blade7]

Vitesse MAF+ has full control of overboost, as I stated, I currently have mine set at 1.5 BAR

What size injectors are you running now Pete?

 

[PSH]

Vitesse MAF+ has full control of overboost, as I stated, I currently have mine set at 1.5 BAR

What size injectors are you running now Pete?

80 something Paul...think my son said 82 but can't remember now, certainly 80.

 

[PSH]

so i take it these are stand alone ecu s that have replaced the standard ?


Daniel

Not I Dan, the original ECU/KLR is much better than some give credit. Vitesse hardware/software is very good and talks directly with the original units..The only downside is 'age' but then again they were built to last and can be repaired if required.

Pete

 

[Dan944t]

i get confused with this gear cos i don’t personally run it yet. i thought you guys ran a stand-alone ecu and got rid of the original ecu and klr?

think i need a phone conversation one day and take some notes down to get my head around what id need and what is compatible for what.

at minute i’d really want to be able to tweak the boost by gear to my liking , and also i would want a decent ebc and a vitess maff or equivalent if there is one. i just assumed i’d have to replace my ecu with a stand alone ,.... but this is where i’m not 100% on what can be left and what has to go regarding the ecu and klr ?

becuase i’m not at that stage of having the money to throw at it , i havnt lioked into it thoroughly, i’m at the stage of getting the engine back together and this massive task of fitting this holset lorry turbo ( twin scroll too ) and full custom exhuast ,...which is taking up all my time ,...fingers crossed that it will be worth the risk [8|]

 

[PSH]

Morning Dan

The Vitesse MAF kit includes a small chip board which fits inside the original ECU. This is a plug and play scenario and John's programming will be pretty much spot on for the car using the info of mods fitted given to him. Yes this is now old school but Vitesse is still recognised as the most reliable MAF system out there. To future proof the system for later mods and to easily adjust the map via a laptop you also need to install the piggyback system, Wayne can then fine tune the map to perfection. For added protection you then have the 'knock monitor' kit which is probably again the best out there. I haven't bought/fitted this yet...I don't drive like a hooligan these days but may get around to doing it one day.
You have my number if you need more details later.

Cheers

Pete

 

[Dan944t]

Morning Dan

The Vitesse MAF kit includes a small chip board which fits inside the original ECU. This is a plug and play scenario and John's programming will be pretty much spot on for the car using the info of mods fitted given to him. Yes this is now old school but Vitesse is still recognised as the most reliable MAF system out there. To future proof the system for later mods and to easily adjust the map via a laptop you also need to install the piggyback system, Wayne can then fine tune the map to perfection. For added protection you then have the 'knock monitor' kit which is probably again the best out there. I haven't bought/fitted this yet...I don't drive like a hooligan these days but may get around to doing it one day.
You have my number if you need more details later.

Cheers

Pete

Morning Pete,

ahhh that’s great , now i understand more thankyou ,... always thought the piggyback stand-alone was to replace everything ecu wise. incredibly gutted i sold my vitesse maf years ago ?? oh well will have to sell one of the kids to raise the funds ??

yes i’m sure i will double check and give you a call when i’m ready for that stage thanks Pete....

for now i will concentrate on getting her back on the road and this enormous task of grafting this new turbo on. i’m having to customise everything as figment has a domino affect on everything, even rerouted the dipstick to the rear of the engine bay! not for the faint hearted this ain’t ...

what EBC is the best out there ? that’s really my next investment once she’s up and running and healthy again . ( you may have told me once ??)

Daniel

 

[PSH]

Imho, you can't better the Apexi EBC....again, it's been around for a long time now, perhaps there's a newer EBC which can give it a run for its money these days, if so I've not seen it As stated it's operating instructions aren't great but there is info on the web to help including a modified 951.
Abother gripe is it uses a different setup for reading road speed which isn't compatible with our cars, I have never used this anyway,
Also it reads in Kg rather than BAR but these two are very close anyway.. I believe it was originally developed for the Jap cars, I think that covers everything?

Pete

 

[Dan944t]

ta pete, i’ll wait for David to see what he’d like for his one,.. otherwise this will be my next mod for the car. my manual works but as we know it’s not ever gonna do what the EBC can do and i didn’t know when John Michell sold me a lot of my mods .

its the Slippery slope sindrome isn’t it .... even though i’ve spent thousands on my mods i still bloody need to spend more !! it’s like a MaryPopins Bag with a hole ?? in it! ??

 

[PSH]

Yep...one big money pit...an EBC is far superior to an MBC, its solenoid will hold the boost at the set level, an MBC always looses boost at the top..but hey, we have all been down the MBC route to begin with..

 

[blade7]

The Vitesse MAF kit is probably the 'piggy back' to buy now. The Rogue Tuning version was an option when it's designer was around to write new chips to overcome issues, but AFAIK Lindsey don't do that. As Pete says, you basically connect Vitesse up, and away you go. When I was looking, import duties etc, mean't like for like VEMS cost less. It seems VEMS usually needs some tweaking, but I think Peep still provides free support. Plus you are replacing the DME and KLR, and it wont be cheap if they needed repairing. My impression was, with Vitesse you're dealing with a salesman, and with VEMS it's an engineer.

 

[Eldavo]

Vitesse is very much ”plug and play” in the way that we have come to expect, fit and forget.


VEMS is called "plug and play” but that means it will work and start with a lot of the typical issues with programming a standalone system resolved BUT you still need to get it mapped/get involved yourself. The payoff is the level of customisation and flexibility that you get . . . once you know what you’re doing.

 

[TTM]

The Vitesse MAF is clearly not plug and play, at least it wasn't back in 2008-2009 when a couple of friends and I installed 3 sets on our cars. Some hacking must be done to the engine harness and some soldering inside the ECU, if I remember correctly. Perhaps using the MAF alone is a fit and forget, but if anyone wishes to tinker down the line then the piggyback thingy is very crude and allows nothing apart roughly tuning the fuel map. John is quick to reply emails but he can also be a right pain in the arse with evasive answers when being asked questions that would have him give out how is software actually works, which is needed when troubleshooting or just understanding what's going on in the engine. It was still a good learning experience and I have no regrets but I quickly grew tired with the lack of flexibility of his sytem. In the end it is clearly not aimed at folks who will keep tinkering with their engines, who perhaps are not that many in the end.

These days I see zero reason not to go for the VEMS kit which offers a lot more abilities for unbeatable money. I do not like the software interface but it's just me.