944 Turbo S Engine Rebuild Thread
- Thread starter Eldavo
- Start date
PSH
PCGB Member
Hi TTM
well, yes not P&P when fitting the piggyback but it's pretty easy when just doing the MAF alone. Yes, the early MAF with piggy back only allows fuel tuning with a few extra's like redline setting etc. I wouldn't label it crude though, in the right hands a good tuner can not only make a lot of power from it but also power that is safe and ultra-reliable as my own setup proved. The later MAF+ though is a different thing altogether, that uses a 3D MAP sensor whilst keeping the original MAF setup, this then gives you control over ignition. It also allows direct access to the original over-boost protection which you can set to your own limits.
I'm not a fan of VEMS, my son though is a fan of standalone although he wasn't keen on VEMS when I mentioned it to him but then he works witj these things, I don't. I read of some owners who have issues with VEMS, never read of anyone having issues with Vitesse, plus I haven't seen VEMS cars making more power.
I'm not totally dismissing VEMS, I'm sure it's ok but having had no trouble with Vitesse for over 14 years and if anything ever did go wrong John includes an over ride board which can bypass the system until the problem can be found/sorted, well I doubt that I'll ever change it.
I'm sure that once I fall off my perch my son will probably redo everything for whatever power he wants, he's mad like that but for me though, i'm happy as is..??
Pete
well, yes not P&P when fitting the piggyback but it's pretty easy when just doing the MAF alone. Yes, the early MAF with piggy back only allows fuel tuning with a few extra's like redline setting etc. I wouldn't label it crude though, in the right hands a good tuner can not only make a lot of power from it but also power that is safe and ultra-reliable as my own setup proved. The later MAF+ though is a different thing altogether, that uses a 3D MAP sensor whilst keeping the original MAF setup, this then gives you control over ignition. It also allows direct access to the original over-boost protection which you can set to your own limits.
I'm not a fan of VEMS, my son though is a fan of standalone although he wasn't keen on VEMS when I mentioned it to him but then he works witj these things, I don't. I read of some owners who have issues with VEMS, never read of anyone having issues with Vitesse, plus I haven't seen VEMS cars making more power.
I'm not totally dismissing VEMS, I'm sure it's ok but having had no trouble with Vitesse for over 14 years and if anything ever did go wrong John includes an over ride board which can bypass the system until the problem can be found/sorted, well I doubt that I'll ever change it.
I'm sure that once I fall off my perch my son will probably redo everything for whatever power he wants, he's mad like that but for me though, i'm happy as is..??
Pete
TTM
Well-known member
I had the Vitesse system with the MAP sensor which did not give access to the timing map, it pretendedly only just adjusted timing in function of boost, a black box again which does not allow the tuner to see and understand what's going on.
The Vitesse MAF will necessarily be reliable for folks like you who do not have anything particularly exotic on their engines, and that's not meant as an offense, so claiming it will be super reliable on internally original engines is like claiming getting caught speeding on the M-way with a Bond 3 wheeler is not going to happen.
The point about all this tuning thing is not just about making more power, it is about understanding how to make any power in the first place and learn how to get there, and possibly give you ideas on which aspects of the engine to improve upon over the long term, but again, I realise this not what most folks are interested in, but this makes things "cheaper" and fare easier over the long term.
The Vitesse MAF will necessarily be reliable for folks like you who do not have anything particularly exotic on their engines, and that's not meant as an offense, so claiming it will be super reliable on internally original engines is like claiming getting caught speeding on the M-way with a Bond 3 wheeler is not going to happen.
The point about all this tuning thing is not just about making more power, it is about understanding how to make any power in the first place and learn how to get there, and possibly give you ideas on which aspects of the engine to improve upon over the long term, but again, I realise this not what most folks are interested in, but this makes things "cheaper" and fare easier over the long term.
PSH
PCGB Member
No offense taken sir...I wouldn't say my engine internally to be original, far from it but yes I've never been interested in going larger capacity or changing stroke. As I have said in the past, I wanted to maintain the lively feel of the 2.5 and why my build thread had 2.5ltr in its title.
You are right in saying I'm not interested in taking things to the next level, I have other far bigger interests to challenge me and keep the old grey matter as good as possible. I leave that sort of tinkering to my son who's in a different league altogether.
For now I'm happy driving a very powerful 951 which is very reliable, as shown from being both my daily driver and the length of time its been running in one modified form or another.
As I said, I'm sure my son will take it further and I'm pretty sure this will involve standalone although I doubt it will be VEMS.
For me, I just want to get her in a new coat of paint which according to the chat with my son last night, should happen next month I can't wait...
Cheers
Pete
You are right in saying I'm not interested in taking things to the next level, I have other far bigger interests to challenge me and keep the old grey matter as good as possible. I leave that sort of tinkering to my son who's in a different league altogether.
For now I'm happy driving a very powerful 951 which is very reliable, as shown from being both my daily driver and the length of time its been running in one modified form or another.
As I said, I'm sure my son will take it further and I'm pretty sure this will involve standalone although I doubt it will be VEMS.
For me, I just want to get her in a new coat of paint which according to the chat with my son last night, should happen next month I can't wait...
Cheers
Pete
TTM
Well-known member
I'm jealous. Having mine repainted has been on the back of my mind for quite some time but considering how much I drive it, well except in the last year obviously, and pretty much on all sorts of roads and weather I am concerned with the possiblity that a fresh new paint may make me overly precious about it and drive it less... But wait, how about that for a good reason to get another car?!
Dan944t said:
About £1100. Comes with the ECU itself, adaptor wiring loom to plug straight into DME and KLR plugs, Wideband lambda sensor, wiring adaptor for barn door plug to temp sensor, temp sensor and a conservative map loaded on for your setup.
Can come with Wasted Spark coil pack and leads, MAC boost valve, Injectors, etc. Can even get one where the inlet air temperature sensor goes inside a gutted AFM for OEM appearance.
You will need to get a wideband bung welded on your exhaust and an inlet air temperature sensor bung welded on the intercooler to throttle body hardpipe.
Dan944t
New member
Eldavo said:
i personally like the sound of this , what about data logging do i need a separate box device to see whats happened on a run ? or is it all stored in the new brain and i would have to keep plugging in lap top? how long are things logged for also
so many questions .....
944Volks
New member
Hi chaps.
Interesting read. I have a basic understanding of mechanics but a lot of this thread went over my head. ??
Saw the scoring in your first post, but what were the symptoms? What made you think your engine needed a rebuild?
I'm concerned about my oil pressure readings, and hoping to find and easy explanation and it doesn't need an expensive rebuild.
Are there any recommended rebuild shops in the Southwest?
Any advice appreciated. ??
Interesting read. I have a basic understanding of mechanics but a lot of this thread went over my head. ??
Saw the scoring in your first post, but what were the symptoms? What made you think your engine needed a rebuild?
I'm concerned about my oil pressure readings, and hoping to find and easy explanation and it doesn't need an expensive rebuild.
Are there any recommended rebuild shops in the Southwest?
Any advice appreciated. ??
Had the car mapped by Dan Standley from DanST Engineering in Shipley, Bradford last Friday.
It is transformed. Massively more driveable at low load and speed in traffic and power delivery is super linear. We hit a couple of snags though, as the cam was an 11th hour addition it hadn’t been degreed in and is very advanced. Great for the bottom end but power is dropping off by 20bhp from 4750rpm to 5500rpm when it should still be rising. Going to order a vernier cam wheel and dial that advance back so should see 360-370bhp peak power Without losing too much at the bottom end.
The other major issue was the heat, a hot day and being locked in a Dyno cell wasn’t very good for anyone. I nearly passed out after one of the runs as ambient temps soared man’s after 5 hours of being there the inlet temps were 42 degrees off boost and we know how long a ‘44 engine stays hot for! Managed 335bhp peak with IATs as hot as they were, expectation would be that would correlate to 350bhp at 20 degrees C.
However, the happy side effect of that cam advance is low down spool and torque, as the graph shows - 17.5psi of boost and 392 ft/lbs of torque at 2650rpm. That torque is more or less flat until 4500rpm and only drops below 300 ft/lbs at 5400rpm. On the road it is absolutely immense, spooling up and pulling from just over 2k and then just surges forward relentlessly.
Dan has dyno-ed and tuned several modified Twbos and we overlaid the charts for all of them, even the 400bhp+ monsters couldn’t match my torque and power figures until they were at 4000rpm, by which point I’d be off down the road and gone.
If I can play with the cam timing to keep that low end spool but liberate some more top end and have the car nice and cool then all thoughts of a bigger "better” turbo are gone.
It is transformed. Massively more driveable at low load and speed in traffic and power delivery is super linear. We hit a couple of snags though, as the cam was an 11th hour addition it hadn’t been degreed in and is very advanced. Great for the bottom end but power is dropping off by 20bhp from 4750rpm to 5500rpm when it should still be rising. Going to order a vernier cam wheel and dial that advance back so should see 360-370bhp peak power Without losing too much at the bottom end.
The other major issue was the heat, a hot day and being locked in a Dyno cell wasn’t very good for anyone. I nearly passed out after one of the runs as ambient temps soared man’s after 5 hours of being there the inlet temps were 42 degrees off boost and we know how long a ‘44 engine stays hot for! Managed 335bhp peak with IATs as hot as they were, expectation would be that would correlate to 350bhp at 20 degrees C.
However, the happy side effect of that cam advance is low down spool and torque, as the graph shows - 17.5psi of boost and 392 ft/lbs of torque at 2650rpm. That torque is more or less flat until 4500rpm and only drops below 300 ft/lbs at 5400rpm. On the road it is absolutely immense, spooling up and pulling from just over 2k and then just surges forward relentlessly.
Dan has dyno-ed and tuned several modified Twbos and we overlaid the charts for all of them, even the 400bhp+ monsters couldn’t match my torque and power figures until they were at 4000rpm, by which point I’d be off down the road and gone.
If I can play with the cam timing to keep that low end spool but liberate some more top end and have the car nice and cool then all thoughts of a bigger "better” turbo are gone.
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