944 Turbo S questions

[Peter Empson]

Sorry, I didn't explain it that well. The sunroof equipped cars have extra bracing in the roof so yes you could argue they are slightly stronger, but that wasn't why I was concerned. It's the job of attaching the new roof to the car without loosing the integrity of the structure that is the potential problem.

 

[random hero]

This was also a concern for me but im getting the roof off the doner car complete so we can use what ever bracing would have been fitted and also my friend who is doing it has worked (and still does) in car body repairs for years and knows exactly what he his doing so it will be safe and look right. Out of interest an Opc wants around £850 just for the roof skin !!

 

[Peter Empson]

So I assume you'll fit it in right at the bottom of the A pillars where the original section runs to. I always thought it must be quite a job to get the alignment spot on and I imagine the dash will have to come out too. £850 for the new roof section doesn't sound as bad as I was expecting if I'm honest.

 

[random hero]

Im not sure where it will be joined as this will be left up to the guy doing the job as he knows best,looking at the pet catalogue the roof comes as the skin only with no pillars so would have to be joined arond the top of the screen pillars .

 

[Peter Empson]

Thanks Jonathan, that makes sense, I just didn't see that join point on my car. Next time I visit it I'll have a proper look.

 

[edh]

GT Racing replied to my question about using manual clips with their panel - their reply is not very conclusive....

"Actually,I don't really know,
We have only seen them glued in,
but if you are familiar with how the "clips" work
then you should be able to make it work."

 

[Fen]

I looked at the new skin option and ruled it out. As I think I mentioned earlier I also look at cutting the roof off a Silver Rose, but to be honest I think I'd rather just go with a CF panel like Peter has now.

In terms of strength I remember a lot of years ago reading that Porsche didn't offer the sunroof in the Silver Rose as they thought the shell wouldn't be able to cope with the extra power (to be honest that sounds like a load of tosh to me), but they later did some proper analysis and found the sunroof shell to be stronger. I completely believe the later part of the story.

I actually think the 944 looks a bit odd without a sunroof as the skin is very domed - wouldn't put me off having one, but after giving this a lot of thought over quite a time period it's another reason just to fix something over the hole to lose the weight IMO, especially after giving more thought to how extensive the work is in taking off a roof and the possible integrity issues. Of course my car would suit a panel even riveted on the roof over the hole and most people's wouldn't.

 

[Peter Empson]

What a brilliant reply you got there Ed! [8|]

I think fabricating something for both the hinge and latch sections would be a lot of work, so it comes back down to the idea of reusing the structure from a spare. I'll see if I can grab the one from my white car on the next visit and see what's possible. I really ought to try to repair the lopsided sunroof on the 944S but it's far more fun destroying stuff in the name of weight reduction []

 

[sawood12]

Isn't it a bit counter-productive to fit the non-sunroof skin AND the extra bracing from the sunroof'd roof? Surely the bracing is there to provide the same or similar stiffness as a non-sunroof'd roof so by adding the bracing you are actually adding back the weight that you were trying to loose in the first place??

 

[edh]

Sounds like an early (lightweight) manual roof may be the best bet. I wonder if I can track one down... Maybe 924 doors with manual mirrors & windows would make sense too?

 

[Peter Empson]

The CF panel is too wobbly (gotta love technical terms) to use on it's own unless it's fixed into position, it needs some structure behind it if it's going to work as the standard one does. I'm not sure why the standard roof is so damn heavy, it's possible that the outer skin (which is quite thick) is the heavy part and the frame undeneath (that has the latch and hinge mech mountings) is nice and light. If this is the case then doing this mod could save a large percentage of its weight.

 

[Peter Empson]

ORIGINAL: edh

Sounds like an early (lightweight) manual roof may be the best bet. I wonder if I can track one down... Maybe 924 doors with manual mirrors & windows would make sense too?

Simon was breaking an early 924 last time I visited my car, I assume it had a sunroof so I'll see if I can rescue it before the left overs get squished (I suspect I'm too late). I don't think the 924 doors would be worth going for, you can make the same savings to yours, just add the manual windows (as Fen did) and gut the mirrors (or go for the SPA ones I'm using or the ones that came on the 944 cups which were on a couple of VW's).

 

[edh]

Thanks Peter

I was just thinking it might be easier to swap the doors rather than fit door cards, manual windows etc...

 

[Fen]

All you need to do is swap the window mechanism and make a hole in the door card. There is even a cut-out circle in the card itself so it's just the vinyl/cloth trim that needs to be punched through. If you get a LHD passenger side door switch plate (single hole) for your driver's door and 2 968 CS window switch blanks it looks factory. Much easier than trying to hang another door off a different car and then try to get the paint to look right.

You can get manual guts for the standard mirror - mine has teardrops but the 968 CS bits would fit an elephant ear as well as the motor mount and glass pins are the same. It's a plastic bit to replace the motor and glass mount with a ball and socket. It must save literally tens of grammes, but you can also get shot of the wiring loom to the door (completely if you lose the window, speaker and locking as well) plus the switchgear. It's still of limited value TBH - at a guess I might have saved 2.5kg by doing all that.

Edit - actually I forgot the weight of the speakers. It probably is worth gutting all that stuff if you lose them as they themselves are probably a few kg.

 

[Fen]

In terms of the roof I don't know why the panel weighs so much either. Perhaps they put uranium 238 in it (and the standard seats)?

I wouldn't take the bracing out of a sunroof car even if I replaced the skin as I don't know what you should put back from a non-sunroof one (and I just wouldn't cut the roof off at the bottom of the pillars and swap the whole thing across - that wasn't my Silver Rose roof plan). I doubt there is a significant weight penalty left after you have got rid of the panel, the wiring, the latches and gears, the motor and the switch as those parts are the bulk of it. The bracing doesn't look massively heavy to me.

You lot are making me want to finish the job of gutting my car down to a bare metal interior...

 

[Peter Empson]

ORIGINAL: Fen
You lot are making me want to finish the job of gutting my car down to a bare metal interior...

Race you []

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: Fen

All you need to do is swap the window mechanism and make a hole in the door card. There is even a cut-out circle in the card itself so it's just the vinyl/cloth trim that needs to be punched through. If you get a LHD passenger side door switch plate (single hole) for your driver's door and 2 968 CS window switch blanks it looks factory. Much easier than trying to hang another door off a different car and then try to get the paint to look right.

You can get manual guts for the standard mirror - mine has teardrops but the 968 CS bits would fit an elephant ear as well as the motor mount and glass pins are the same. It's a plastic bit to replace the motor and glass mount with a ball and socket. It must save literally tens of grammes, but you can also get shot of the wiring loom to the door (completely if you lose the window, speaker and locking as well) plus the switchgear. It's still of limited value TBH - at a guess I might have saved 2.5kg by doing all that.

Edit - actually I forgot the weight of the speakers. It probably is worth gutting all that stuff if you lose them as they themselves are probably a few kg.

Thanks Fen - that makes it easier - although I'd probably sell my door cards + the premium sound (is that right?) speakers. PH told me these door cards are quite hard to find. Most people complain about the sound in a 944 - I think it's not bad with this setup.

If I do this there will be plenty of painting to do - lots of fibreglass panels (I have a few stashed in the garage already )

 

[Fen]

I sold my speakers - anyone want a set of cards to suit? I thought it sounded average at best. I drove my Mini yesterday for the first time in a while and with the Harmon Kardon pack (its version of the 10-speaker in essence) it actually sounds quite good. Even my Jeep doesn't sound bad now it has a decent head unit - better than I remember the 944 sounding.

Even if you do replace the cards you just need an ordinary set from any oval dash car to replace them with - assuming you want to stick with cards.

Peter - I have a slight handicap in that I need to get my car "posted" to me before I can start. I'm sort of thinking of it though as I figure having used the Mini once in nearly 2 months and having started to lose its (uprated) brakes just driving from home to the airport (OK so there happens to be something akin to an Alpine pass between me and the airport), plus its propensity to touch bits of road surface with the front bumper (which is why I don't use it much - it's easier just to take the Jeep and not have to worry) that I might move it on and bring the Turbo over to use as an unregistered track-day toy. That being the case it can be truly gutted with a full cage and maybe an LS1.

 

[sawood12]

Do the speaker pack doorcards have much room in there to replace the speakers with modern larger units?

 

[Fen]

I doubt it. The differences as I recall are that they have the tweeter in the top at the front and then where the door pocket would be they have some holes for wiring and to allow the magnets in the back of the speakers to sit slightly further back.