944s...

[Robert Edwards]

Hi everybody; I have joined this happy band, and as I am looking for a decent 944 S2 (preferably a cabriolet) I must say that I have found it all amazingly useful. I have been away from the Porsche habit for far too long (I have owned both a 911 and a 944 S2 before and I reckon the 944 scores more highly on most fronts).

But the price variations now seem huge! When I had my previous S2 it was almost new and seemed fairly faultless, so the info regarding cams, transmissions and particularly rust rather grabbed my attention. I thougjht these things were galvanised!

But it is a bit odd that, by comparison with my VW valver, which revs to b*****y and presumably uses a similar technology, there is seldom any talk of camshaft hardening starting to fail. I thought that was uniquely a 1950s Italian problem. Perhaps it is a better bargaining point that I realised...

Thanks again, all contributors

 

[Paul 944 s2]

Robert, I have a friend who is on the hunt for a MK2 Golf 16v, have you one for sale? Thanks Paul

 

[Robert Edwards]

No, but there is a promising-looking one in Belfast, as a matter of fact, which puts it off the clock for most shoppers. I think it's on pistonheads.

Cheers.

 

[Robert Edwards]

Sorry, off that; it's an eight valve in N.I. . There is a very good chap in the Midlands who runs Volkswizard, and he's usually got a few...

 

[Diver944]

Hi Robert welcome on board and good luck with the hunt []

As for the price variations, well the sad fact is that our cars have depreciated to the point that virtually anyone can afford to buy one, but not everyone can afford (or wants) to spend the money to maintain them. It is very easy to take a good car in for a service and walk away with a £2k bill because some of the parts that lasted 18 years are now wearing out. Some Porsche parts can be expensive, but they do last for an absolute age and take a heck of a lot of stick so you always get what you pay for.

Over the years we see many people who have just managed to get on our happy Porsche bandwagon only to jump straight off after 6 months when hit with a big bill and have to sell their car on for a pittance.

 

[Robert Edwards]

Hi Paul,

yes, it's not dissimilar to what happened to Astons, etc., in the early eighties when as they fell in price, they fell into -ahem- the wrong hands, and when a new generation of buyers discovered them they were frequently crap by then. I can remember seeing DB4s regularly being broken up for bits, which makes one weep now.

But regarding price, it's fair to point out that a decent 944 is easily a match for a DB4 in a straight line, and round corners there's simply no contest, although the overall driving experience is not too different. And, given that a decent DB4 is now in excess of £100K, it would seem that 944s can only really go up.

I imagine that if and when they do move upwars, more people will want them, hence my interest now!

 

[Robert Edwards]

And, while I'm on the subject, I am told (but do not know for sure) that Dr. Ulric Betz (AML) considers that the 944/968 series were the best thing Porsche ever did. I have to say I have not had a go in some of the more radical firebreathers currently around, but generally, given current road conditions, he's probably right.

Policy has got to be, I suppose, to find the best and consider it as a car rather than anything else. And as I think of it, if I consider the ten best cars I have ever driven, eight of them were German!

 

[Neil Haughey]

Yes and one can easilly spend 40K on a new BMW/MB that is boring to drive and really not much better as an all round usable car then 5K worth of S2/turbo if one doesn't require 4 proper seats, whilst also losing 5K to 10K a year in depreciation. Looking at it from that angle a 2K garage bill is irrelevant. Personally I think there is something inherently classy about owning and maintaining older classic sports cars. Any fool can get a loan to buy a flash new motor.

 

[Robert Edwards]

Hear, hear...

I said a similar thing on an Aston Forum only the other day; that one can even make a case that running an ancient motor is actually green (spit) given the comical expense of making and shipping around new ones. And I believe Porsches are particularly praiseworthy in this respect, but that is not, I should add, why I want another one...

 

[Hilux]

My view FWIW...................[drive what you like not whats the best (apparent at the time) value]

I dont drive new cars. I dont like them but more than that I am not prepared to pay what they are asking for them.

These people who buy an old car then expect a big bill and bottle it and sell it have lost the plot completely.

People buy new cars for 2 reasons only
1) They are scared of big bills so want the warranty and still get big service bills []
2) They can clearly afford (and love to throw money away) the massive depreciation on a new car.

Say a Mondeo is £17k. After 3 years its worth `say` £9k. Ergo how many repair bills would you expect in a new car costing over 3 years some £8k. I know two people that bought a £70K plus porker and and a £75k merc. Both dealers (where they bought them from) some 14 and 18 months respectively offered them £1 a mile depreciation. Porker had done 30,000 and merc had done 36,000. How many reapir bills is that.

To summarise, you pay circa £5000 for your car and spend £2000 on it in the first year to get it reliable. After that even a £1000 a year is peanuts for a car you like in comparison to depreciation on even a two year old car and its nothing in comparison to a really expensive car.

How much will current M5`s and M3`s be worth in 3 years [], more than I will pay but my car will still be worth the same I paid for it (possibly more) and STILL be cheaper to run (as long as I dont spend money on shiney bits and things that make it go faster [8|])

 

[Neil Haughey]

My boss got a 1 yr old mondeo diesel estate last year. It lost £3.5K in depreciation in 8 months. 9K after 3 years is more like what you could expect from an Alfa or Saab that goes for £22K+ new.

 

[sawood12]

Well I got my car for £6,800 and at the time was drawn away from spending circa £16- £18k on one of the latest generation of hot hatches. I have spent nowhere near £10k on mods even once i've fitted and paid for the up and coming KW installation. My mates have all got the hot hatches (1xCupra R, 1xCivic Type R, 1xGolf GTi 180bhp previous model, 1xClio 182, 1x180TT, 1x225TT, 1x3.2v6TT) and I can catagorically confirm that I do not have an ounce of car envy and have not regretted my decision one bit. It's also comforting to note that even though the perception is that modern cars are cheaper to run and less hassle the reality is far from it. The Cupra gets through tyres like there is no tomorrow and are £225/corner, the Golf GTi is always being troubleshot for niggly electrical problems, the 182Clio spends so much time in the garage being fixed that the owner is currently trying to get rid, and the TT's cost a fortune to service and the 225TT had to have a new clutch after 15k miles as an o-ring in the hydraulic clutch went and contaminated the clutch plates with clutch fluid the day after the warranty expired - total bill £900 - which is more than a clutch change on a 944. The Type R is the only car that seems to be bullet proof but I just couldn't live with that guttless engine and sparce interior. So the reality of new car ownership does not live upto the dream. The cars are so costly to run and none of them want to take them anywhere near a track as they just can't bear the thought of the resulting bills.

Also old cars with less sophisticated ECU's are better for the environment (if you are one of those who are deluded that CO2 emissions actually causes global warming) becasue the are not lean burn engines we have lower CO2 emissions and those of use without catalytic converters are not producing sulphur dioxide (i think that's the gas) which is also a so-called greenhouse gas. We just produce good old fashioned soot and unburned fuel!!

 

[John Sims]

Hi Robert,

Nice to see a new name on the forum who is obviously a serious car nut.

You made particular reference to rust in your original question. (Perhaps due to experiences with Astons ?)

Rust wasn't considered an issue on 944's five years ago. Now, as some approach their 25th Birthday, even though the car was galvanised the dreaded rust worm is starting to show it's head.

Mechanicals can be sorted. Amazingly you can still get new replacement parts for a 944 from a Porsche main dealer - not many car manufacturers still support cars that old (assuming the manufacturer still exists). Rust is always a different issue and you end up chasing your tail once you start.

A good clean 944 should provide many years of great entertainment and should soon start to appreciate in value - get one now.

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: John Sims
A good clean 944 should provide many years of great entertainment and should soon start to appreciate in value - get one now.

You're very hopeful John []

Is there any evidence that 944's will ever do anything but slowly slide in value? I can't see demand picking up, & that's the only thing that will push prices higher.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: edh

ORIGINAL: John Sims
A good clean 944 should provide many years of great entertainment and should soon start to appreciate in value - get one now.

You're very hopeful John []

Is there any evidence that 944's will ever do anything but slowly slide in value? I can't see demand picking up, & that's the only thing that will push prices higher.

Unfortunately I don't see them appreciating in the short term.

As they get cheaper (regrettably) they will fall into the hands of Chavs and other less respectable delinquents. Many will get trashed. This could be a good thing. The afore mentioned low lifes will buy, and destroy, the cheap cars leaving the better maintained examples for a more appreciative buyer. It is the availability of second hand 944's that keeps the prices down. As more are killed the remaining cars become more sought after.

Add to that the great number of original 944 owners (people who had them from new). These people were obviously wealthy at the time and may now be in a position where they can purchase another 944 to relive old times. These people will appreciate the merits of the car and will pay good money for a good example - would even perhaps be put off by their current low value.

 

[Suffolk944]

I must say that as someone who is currently going through the experience of having taken their car in for a service and who is now bracing himself for a hefty bill due to various other issues coming to light , this thread has made me feel much better about things and put them into a good degree of perspective.

Just hope she is back together in time for Frontrunner !

 

[Robert Edwards]

No, no, no...

I think that you are quite wrong. It is not often that a manufacturer makes it clear what it is that they are trying to do, and the 944 is a good example of that. It is fast, agile and reliable, as well as being extremely pretty. But there is more - you can trundle, or you can get on it. It is also extremely unobtrusive.

Perhaps it is the perfect car?

 

[Hilux]

I said a similar thing on an Aston Forum only the other day; that one can even make a case that running an ancient motor is actually green

You are correct. An old car was manufactured once where its emodied energy is highest. Run it for years instead of buying a half dozen new cars and you are right that it is greener.

BTW did you know that it takes more energy to produce photovoltaic cells (solar panels) than they will ever save in energy in their projected 20 year life cycle so dont buy a solar panelled car [], stick to petrol [8D]

 

[Robert Edwards]

An anecdote which might amuse regarding car values. When Aston Martin (then recently acquired by Ford) brought out the Virage (1990?) a car comic journalist rolled up at Newport Pagnell to have a drool and interview the design staff. He failed in this endeavour and ended up talking to a development engineer instead, who proudly announced that the rear suspension (his own work) cost more to build than a Ford Sierra. Needless to say, the new owners took a rather dim view of this and slotted the fellow immediately. Ironically, he was last heard of building replica GT40s

He was probably right with regard to the suspension, in fact, but as someone was quick to point out when they tested the wretched car, at least a Ford Sierra actually worked, whereas the rear suspension on a Virage was so bloody awful that the car was capable of changing lanes on the M1 all on its own.

V glad that Suffolk 944 is cheered by this thread, but I simply think that the dynamic of this is all about finding the tipping point. If you can buy a decent car for, say £7-8 k and a crap one for £2, then you know that the difference (we never count our time, do we gents?) in terms of body, mechanicals, brakes, wiring, trim and paint are simply not going to get you back where you started, which means that over time, marginal cars will get broken up, scrapped, turned into track toys or whatever.

So, we pay to find out! As soon as someone lashes out, say 12 or 13K for a car (and I am sure that there are plenty around which are worth that as cars (as against anything else, I mean) then suddenly the dynamic will change and people will "discover" them. Hacks will praise them, specialists will appear out of the woodwork and trade will be brisk. Then the risk is simple. Flog your car, trouser the money and then, while your back is turned, they will start changing hands at 20K, which as anyone can work out, is more or less the cost of restoring a wreck. look at the early 70s 911s and the Beemer CSL.

These are already (in a modest way) cult cars, like VW valvers, CSLs, (even Cossies,)and so forth. They are quicker than just about anything else at the capacity and weight, and we all know their other virtues and vices. Audi Quattros have, to an extent, done this too, but they never really got cheap enough to fall into the hands of the pikers.

But even most Golf Mark 2 valvers are worth more broken up than they are as cars, due to the eye-watering cost of cetain new parts (BBS wheels. for example) but we have seen the effect at work. You have to pay the thick end of 4K for the best in the country if it hasn't been chavved up, but you can get a useable one for a quarter of that if you don't mind nasty wheels, twinklies, a Halfords aerosol respray over the rust and fluffy dice.

I would suggest, gents, that the tipping point is quite close - you cannot, anywhere else, buy anything like it for the money! And, at my first attempt, I was offered fully comp. Classic car insurance for £250! That's not much! I'm sure I can do better, too.

But, as has been said above, this is not about mere price, but about value. But IMHO,
it's also about economics...

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: Robert Edwards

As soon as someone lashes out, say 12 or 13K for a car (and I am sure that there are plenty around which are worth that as cars

There were three Turbos owned by club members that went for those figures (and higher) back in December. Ok one had a newly rebuilt blueprinted engine, one was very well sorted by Jon Mitchells garage and the other was a Cabrio, but it shows that people will pay top money for top cars.

Hopeful owners have been saying for years that the price will rise but I've never personally believed this. One or two excellent examples will always fetch exceptional prices but I think in general the best we can hope for is non depreciation []