944s...

[Robert Edwards]

I think Turbos are in a category of their own; one either loves them or one is terrified by them. I tried one out once and it left me exhausted and acutely aware of the idea that there was some mad bugger in Stuttgart who was trying to kill me. And this was at Goodwood.

Magnificent, but not for me.

 

[rob.kellock]

ORIGINAL: edh

Is there any evidence that 944's will ever do anything but slowly slide in value? I can't see demand picking up, & that's the only thing that will push prices higher.

demand may not pick up but supply will reduce...although looking at the prices 924s fetch on ebay i think i'll make alternative pension arrangements than simply keeping the 944!

 

[Hilux]

There were three Turbos owned by club members that went for those figures

They must have been v v special as thats mental amounts of cash. I was happy to have paid over £10k when I was looking for one but the top ones were no better (believe me) than the lesser ones in many respects. I paid £5k knowing that there was potential with the car and that I`d spend money on it.

Theres an immaculate £10k one (two years ago) who decided not to sell me it going for £7.5k now so paying 13k is somewhat ridiculous IMO unless its had a serious engine rebuild with improved performance and all the right shiney bits and new suspension etc etc

They would have to have been concours mechanically as well or you are getting a car that has potentially all the issues of a £6-8k one

 

[carlmthompson]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

The Type R is the only car that seems to be bullet proof but I just couldn't live with that guttless engine and sparce interior.

Try telling that to my mate, who brand new Type R lunched it's engine after only 10k miles. They tried to say it was because he hadn't put oil in - but he checked it every week! Honda eventually coughed up which tells the story.......
As you say, truly gutless engine - every drive feels manic.

I agree with Paul on the new car debate - I just don't see the point in paying a fortune for something that's worth nothing three years later - and I see less point in paying yet more of my meager earnings in VAT! What I find even more incomprehensible is that if I was to go for a company car (which I don't as it works out more expensive than running my own) I would pay tax based on the new list price including the VAT - so I would be paying tax on the VAT! As the hip kids are saying, that's just Bananas!

Oh, and edited to add that the main threat to 944 values are the falling Boxster prices. Older Boxsters can now be had for less than £10k if you know where to look, and a 3.2S for anything from £12.5K. Two and a half years ago when I bought my 44, the cheapest boxters were £15k, and in a different price bracket - now they're in the same one. Bu$$er!

 

[rajagger]

Oh, and edited to add that the main threat to 944 values are the falling Boxster prices. Older Boxsters can now be had for less than £10k if you know where to look, and a 3.2S for anything from £12.5K. Two and a half years ago when I bought my 44, the cheapest boxters were £15k, and in a different price bracket - now they're in the same one. Bu$$er!

Thats why i went for a 1987 Lux. I'm tempted more by a boxster now though. Not sure I could part with the 944 though just yet!

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: Hilux

......paying 13k is somewhat ridiculous IMO unless its had a serious engine rebuild with improved performance and all the right shiney bits and new suspension ....

I think that would be a reasonable description of one of them. []

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: rajagger

Oh, and edited to add that the main threat to 944 values are the falling Boxster prices. Older Boxsters can now be had for less than £10k if you know where to look, and a 3.2S for anything from £12.5K. Two and a half years ago when I bought my 44, the cheapest boxters were £15k, and in a different price bracket - now they're in the same one. Bu$$er!

Thats why i went for a 1987 Lux. I'm tempted more by a boxster now though. Not sure I could part with the 944 though just yet!

But 944 prices need not be forced down by boxster prices, just because they are newer. If the 944 is genuinely a better car, we should be seeing a situation where their prices are above those of the later (boxster) model.

In the world of Golfs, good M2 GTi's command much better money than good Mk3 GTi's, despite them being the previous generation model. Why? Because they were truly excellent cars, and the Mk3 was a lemon. While I don't think we are looking at the same disparity in the 944/Boxster situation, it is not inconceivable that something similar will apply.


Oli.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: carlmthompson

....the main threat to 944 values are the falling Boxster prices. Older Boxsters can now be had for less than £10k ....

That's a fair comment but 944's and Boxsters are such different cars the only overlap in market would be someone who wanted a Porsche. The dropping value of the 996 hasn't had a great impact on the value of 993's.

 

[Hilux]

I think that would be a reasonable description of one of them. []

So what was it? I need to know so that I know where to spend £25k to realise £13k [][][]

Seriously though i`d love to know what it/they was/consisted of and what were the specs etc. Anyone have any details?

 

[Robert Edwards]

I quite agree; the VW parallel is quite right. The Mark 3 is a total lemon. I have heard q. good reports of the newest one though.

Regarding Botoxes, I had a go in one of the early ones and did not like it overmuch. In younger times I had a 3.2 Carrera and I was unavoidably drawn to comparing it with the B. There was not much of a contest, to be frank, and I have not tried one since. Maybe they are better now?

I think my 3.2 was even a bit tired, too - I bought it from an Indie specialist in Putney and was probably seduced by the fact that the first owner had been Jochen Maas. A giveaway was that it was convertible with air-conditioning; blue, blue and blue. Anyone know where it is now?

Wifey said: 'Do you think it is altogether wise to buy a car with this history? Really? One careful owner - Evel Knievel! Fool....'

She had a point. But I still cannot resist putting down Boxters, and hijack a passage from the excellent Two and a half men. If someone tells me they have one, I (lying) tell them that I have just bought one for my eighteen year old daughter. "She's never, after all, going to get into serious trouble (of a motoring kind) in one of those, is she?" So, apologies to anyone on this forum - I was only pulling your plonker.

I do not think that the Boxter market will harm the '44 market, as the two cars might as well have been built by different companies. What I recall with such fondness is the simple balance of the thing, something you simply get with that architecture, which is why a Ferrari Daytona 'torque tube' will always command a high price, despite the fact that if you look closely, it could have been hammered together by a blacksmith.

However, there is just one faint parallel - the impact of the XK8 on Merc SL prices - the XK was and is a very decent motor, but even when new, it was cheaper than a well cared-for 500. Merc prices collapsed. But - two different makers.

That is as far as it goes, though.

The search continues!

 

[carlmthompson]

ORIGINAL: John Sims

ORIGINAL: carlmthompson

....the main threat to 944 values are the falling Boxster prices. Older Boxsters can now be had for less than £10k ....

That's a fair comment but 944's and Boxsters are such different cars the only overlap in market would be someone who wanted a Porsche. The dropping value of the 996 hasn't had a great impact on the value of 993's.

Completely agree, but the market is the market as they say, and most people shopping for a "Porsche" will choose a Boxster over a 944 in the (uneducated[8|]) understanding that it is newer, hence better to drive, faster and more reliable.

As for 996 / 993, I recon it's because of the romance of the 993 and those that went before it - that romance was largely lost with the 996 (IMHO) but slightly regained with the 997. Also there aren't going to be any more 993's, and demand far outstrips supply - a bit like housing in the South. Earliest 996's can now be had for less £18k which seems to be the going rate for a bargain 993 - horses for courses I guess!

 

[Hilux]

If you are 6 foot plus the top of the screen/sunvisor is always/too much in yer face in a boxster [&:]

 

[carlmthompson]

Should add to my post two above, when I said that the Boxster is now in the same price bracket as the 944, and said bu$$er.

I was saying bu$$er because it'll be harder to sell the 944 now for decent money - not because I would have bought a Boxster instead. But I can see how others who want "a Porsche" would now go for a flawed / tired 2.5 Boxster instead of a much faster /older 44 Turbo.

Must write out 100 times "read your posts so that they make sense before you click OK"

Oli - I agree with you on the Golf front, but the 944 and Boxster aren't comparable cars in real life, so they won't fall into the same category - they just affect each others value because of the perception - even down to the misconception that the 44 is really a Porsche badged VW. I've never driven a Boxster, but could imagine it is an easier car to live with for tootling about while saying to everyone "I have a Porsche", and requires less effort on it's limits (i.e it's set up to be predictably safe and, let's face it, slightly boring). I have no doubt that 99% of Porsche owners have never seen a track day!

Don't get me wrong, I don't want it to be this way, it just is!

 

[Neil Haughey]

ISTR that the boxster is built in Finland by Tom Walkinshaws outfit? at least the 944 was built entirely in Germany and to be honest looking at the value attached to secondhand Audi UR quattro, the 944 would probably be worth more if it carried the Audi badge. IMHO the image problem is nothing like as bad as it was several years ago, still not old enough or rare enough to get true classic cult status. A late S2 turbo could still be a 15-16 yr old car. We need at least another 5 years. I just hope that in 10 yrs time that the D90's and pinstripe interior aren't lusted after!

 

[Robert Edwards]

I wondered what had happened to him! A few years ago I was nattering with someone at TWs place regarding tuning up my family hack, a Volvo five cylinder estate.

I hadn't realised then that the lump was a Porsche design and, as this was their last season in BTCC, I thought I'd grab a few secrets.

"Well," said the bloke "When Porsche sent the engines over, we got them out of the crates and took them apart and they were race prepared already!"

No wonder they did so well...

 

[George Elliott]

Great comments, I enjoy the belief which exists (and I share) in the 944, especially the turbo with a few mods, and also the fact that I am not alone in viewing the modern hot hatches and sports cars as overpriced, mediocre, customer clinic'd, blandness. (A MK2 Golf 16v on standard14inch rims would run rings around them.)

First impressions count for alot, - my first of the Boxter was seeing the plastic ball-joint on the Top Gear test car fail. It was a super cheap moulding, and served to drag the snap together (and apart) engineering of the then new generation Porsche into public view. But the public don't notice, they see the badge.

I recall when the first references to NVH (noise/vibration/harshness) appeared in the Motoring press. I drove a 1.8 Sierra pool car at work at the time and remember being totally gob-smacked at the Rubber steering, rubber gears, rubber control stalks, rubber pedals, it was so different to a 2 litre cortina which was crude but had some feel.

Since the early 90's "Japaneese" assembly practises, Euro NCAP safety measures- (I gather the tests are done with the seat 2/3rds back, so they extend the runners now to get better results!) NVH, Cup Holders, Catalytic converters, Traction control systems, detached steering with zero feel, and other cost saving shared platform innovations have produced the junk we are offered today.

George

944T
964rs

 

[Robert Edwards]

Ah, the eighties...

When I first started to buy old cars, it wasn't purely because I couldn't afford new ones, it was also a matter of what was available. The Morris Marina! The Austin Allegro! Good examples of what central planning can inflict upon us. My first serious car was a DB4 - £400. I was even offered, in the long hot summer of 1976, a series one E type and an AC Aceca for £300 - the pair.

It went from there, really and I didn't buy a GTi until after I'd had a 911. The build quality was marvellous (and those early VWs were seriously better than the 'second phase' ones). And the same with BMWs - the standards simply dropped off the chart. Same with Mercs; I had a cheapo 190SL at University - it simply didn't go wrong (thank God) and later I had a 6.3 which was simply awesome, in all senses of the word. Eight to the gallon was a bit tough, though...

So when I tried the 944, I realised that here was a small timewarp - yes, I know that its progenitor (924) rec'd many sneers regarding its humble engine, but bugger that - look at the reverence heaped upon Big Healeys - the 100/4 had a Taxi engine, and in no particular state of tune. But the 944 seemed to me to be screwed together so well and planned so well that perhaps my earlier remarkes were misplaced. The thiungs last so well that the survival rate will be high for some time to come.

I've never been near a 924, but it is apparently comparable in price to an MGB, a car so flawed that you need to throw quite serious money at it to have any fun with it. At least, as I have said elsewhere on this thread, it is clear what the builders were trying to do.

And that matters...

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott
I recall when the first references to NVH (noise/vibration/harshness) appeared in the Motoring press. Since the early 90's "Japaneese" assembly practises, Euro NCAP safety measures- (I gather the tests are done with the seat 2/3rds back, so they extend the runners now to get better results!) NVH, Cup Holders, Catalytic converters, Traction control systems, detached steering with zero feel, and other cost saving shared platform innovations have produced the junk we are offered today.

George

944T
964rs

I would hate to disagree but before the S2 I had a 1984 SAAB 900T16. One of the first 16v turbos to come into the country in fact. My dailer driver is a 1998 SAAB 9-5. Now in all honesty I struggle to see how 14 years of development has made the latter car much better. The old 900 would be a better car then the 9-5 if it had modern brakes, less water/rust traps, and finally less wind noise at speed.Both cars have horrible gearboxes. Now as hard as it sounds to believe my old 900 on 210 lb/inch springs and koni shocks at each corner rode the road much better then my 9-5 does on super soft feeling SAAB aero suspension [stability and comfort]. The 900 was IMHO one of the best cars in the 80's wheras the recent GM cloaked stuff is just sad. However looking back at old price guides what killed the 900 and many other great cars from that era was the price. What you get nowadays is very well engineered when you consider the lengths manufacturers go to to get the price down, just don't expect that you are getting anything other then nicely dressed up tat IMHO.

 

[Robert Edwards]

Yes, Saab did pretty well with that, I always thought - it suffered from being one of the first turbocharged cars, if only because it was always a bit of a mystery as to how you should drive them. The engine was of pretty humble origins too; was it not originally a Triumph engine with genes going back to the 1940s? (Roadster, TR1, etc.) but putting a hairdryer on it certainly blew the cobwebs away.

I saw one blow up in a most spectacular fashion on the A303 a few years ago - one minute blatting along, the next, a great cloud of smoke/steam/noise. I stopped to help and the driver was a charming chap, even apologetic. I have noticed ever since then that Saabs (unlike Volvos) are almost invariably driven with great courtesy and consideration.

 

[Neil Haughey]

The story with the SAAB turbo was that it happened because the V8 developed ISTR by Triumph was complete rubbish. The guy who runs Turbotechnics designed the original turbo installation design on the 99 which was an 8v engine (I believe he worked for Garrett at the time). The 16v engine that came out in I believe 1984 has a head design similar I guess to other high performance 16v engines from that era. AFAIK these latter engines don't have much to do with Triumph. Every SAAB 4 cylinder turbo petrol engine up to the current 9-5 but not the 9-3SS is an evolutionary development of that 16v engine in the 900.