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964 re-spray and restore

TonyGee

TonyGee

PCGB Member
Member
Hello all, this is my first post in the 964 area although I did post a similar one in body work a week or so back and was advised to post in the 964 area so here I am. I have a 1990 C4 in Guards Red with high miles, around 165k which has been my daily driver for the last 10 glorious years. It lives on the street as I don't have a garage and it parks all over the place, particularly in multi story car parks in London where I work and live. At 25 years it's beginning to look a bit sad with rust in every corner and the A pillars and faded paint in places. I have already had a couple of quotes and I think I have found an ideal place to get the work done close to home. My question at this stage is this.

Q: Which is the best paint process to have during this glass out bare metal respray. A modern hard wearing 2 pack with clear coat or a more authentic paint finish without clear lacquer which is less resistant to the elements?

I want to drive the car and get another 10 years out of it before it needs doing again if at all. I'll get the engine rebuilt next year but for now it does what it's supposed to do apart from a sticky first gear when the engines hot. I don't do a very high mileage anymore and its all in town, more or less.

Also, another question, can anyone recommend a good and competitive body shop in London that can give me a quote for high quality work. Top price so far has been £18k starting price which in MHO is far too much. I am anticipating paying around £12k not including some of the parts which I will buy myself to save money, lights, rubbers, front o/s wing all already bought but not rear quarter which I will leave to them. Everything else seems sound, doors, sills, lids etc.

One other thing. The guy I have found does not work specifically on Porsche's. He has in depth restoration experience on E-TYpes, Merc Pagoda's, Aston Martin, Bentley, Merc SL's, VW Camper (air cooled), all from 60's and newer. He has worked on old and new 911's but never a restoration. His work is very good, old school, should I be wary. I have been to many so called Porsche experts over the years and to be honest many leave a lot to be desired, this guy gives me a good feeling.

So, I'm about to spend what in my opinion is lot of money on an old car, any tips before I push the button in about three weeks?

Fully documented resto by the way.

Thanks, I look forward to your thoughts

Tony
 
Tony, Nice to read that you are considering a restoration. 165k not that bad and with an engine rebuild it makes no difference anyway. I have seen 964's running ok a 200k without an engine rebuild. Like you, they are a daily driver so not standing around for long periods. Anyway now to the point. I have a 964 C2 is a great colour called Amethyst. It went to a Porsche specialist in November for a full glass out respray. I opted for the water based paint and finish using modern technics. Let’s face it the painting technics today are far better and as you say will stand the test of time. Although I live in the midlands the specialist is estimating around 4.5k and 6k for this work dependant on metal work. I must admit my A pillars are ok the only serious area of concern was the front window scuttle which has been damaged during a window replacement in the past and the metal worm has taken hold. I do feel even 12k is on the extreme high side unless you want a full concours car with every nut and bolt replaced. Most porsche specialist will offer 3 types of restore or finish. 1 - Basic respray only replacing parts that need replacing or have been damaged during the dismantle process, 2 - street concours - most if not all rubbers will be replaced. nuts and bolts are replaced or cleaned up to a good standard 3 - full concours - majority of cases the body is stripped back to bare metal - engine all windows etc etc are removed. I do wonder if you quote is for the later, but I am not sure a daily driver needs this attention to detail. Your choice but if it needs refreshing up and treating all rust areas perhaps a basic finish is ok for you!. Another thing to consider if the engine/ gear box needs to come out during this process why not get the engine work done. obviously there is quite a few hours labour costs for pull the engine out, so why pay for it again? For me shop around, find garages that have done Porsches before. There will be individuals (Porsche GB Members) in your area that can recommend good Porsche specialists. If not try either, TwoPlusTwo, Pro-9 or Zentrum which are all based in the midlands area and have good reputations. Finally sourcing parts yourself is only a saving if you manage to find old stock items on auction sites. Buying via stockist yourself will be the same price or more than what the Porsche specialist can get them for. Good luck with it. 964 in my opinion are the best 911’s Dave
 
Do it..! If it's a non-smoker and isn't dumping oil (small drips just fine) then deal with the engine later if the funds aren't all there just yet. You can get a feel for engine rebuild costs (top end or full) all over the forum and Rennlist too. Also, you have an air cooled special 911, think UK-wide for best it deserves and not just London - the best / more experienced aren't based there. I lived in London with my 911's and both worked on always outside of London. Cheaper and more personal. Bodywork quote you have been given is I suspect at London labour rates. You'll get a split too of some places really only interested in, and charging accordingly for, glam cars and exotica - not really too interested in rust repairs, body restos etc - some quote stupid money to cover their inexperience or 'just don't knows'. Then you'll get others of community recommendation who are small, niche, not the quickest but really know their stuff and do 911's day in day out and understand the rust foibles they suffer. Some good places just mentioned for engine but also RPM Tecknik and more around. When you're ready grab some workshop names out from the back of the 911 mags and double check them on the forums. Ignoring clutch/flywheel, tinware, ancillaries or upgrades etc you could be looking at something between £6k to £11k (top-end to full). Other have spent less/more (and am sure will respond) but that is what someone like Ollie charges at RPM. I had a full on glass-out, bare metal, a-pillar/scuttle sections, rear window and other rot repairs and inner wing done a couple of years ago that I think ended up close to £10k. That's everything including new OPC front wing, new headlining, all new rubbers (deffo throw the old ones away, they would have shrunk/cracked and spoil the whole finished look). I went for later paints of factory colour spec. That 911 is in heaven now :-( Greg Marshall here somewhere has literally just done all the original vs new paint compounds down to chemical analysis etc. I'll get him to shout back. All help, suggestions and plenty of opinion on offer here and Rennlist. Update all how on it goes with stacks of pics too please... Marcus
 
Wow that's big money you are being quoted. As he's not a Porsche specialist my guess is that he's put Porsche owners in the money is no object category. The same one as owners of prestigous marque garage queens that are kept for investment and the odd summer car show. In addition to the price I would also worry if he knows how to take a 911 apart and then put it back together. Even apparent simple things such as removing the door handles require knowledge of how to do it so nothing gets broken in the process. Although I haven't used him, many 964 owners rave about Tom at Lemass Automotive who has become a 964 specialist over the last few years: https://www.facebook.com/Lemassautomotive
 
I can only echo that you should be looking outside London, and not even that far outside. JZM do menu pricing on engine rebuilds, although you will inevitably end up spending more than the menu price on extras, but Marcus's range is fairly typical. Just down the road from them is Langley Autocraft, a fairly unassuming and apparently general workshop, the bodywork is carried out at the back where you will always find half a dozen Porsches in various states of undress, where my car is presently in for a bit of surgery. They did my mates 3.2, body off, including kidney bowls etc, for around the £10K mark. They also give you a smoker to run round in whilst they are doing the work, which might be convenient for you if you use your car as a daily driver. He also often has some good second hand trim & ancillary parts which he will let you have for your rebuild for buttons, like grilles and arch liners. For your £18K, you should pretty much be able to get the body & engine done if you are lucky.
 
Interesting Colin... choosing Langley Autocraft. Not heard of them. Did the work on the 3.2 swing it? Sounds very reasonable for all that work too. So, what's the story with yours and Langley?
 
Talk to Tom at http://www.lemass.co.uk/ he is a 964 owner and has restored loads of 964`s over the last couple of years have a look on here http://www.london964owners.com/#!gallery/cuye think Tom has painted most of them !
 
Thanks guys for all the replies and great advice. I probably should point out that I have had the car serviced at GT One in Chertsey for the last 5 or 6 years, expensive but I feel comfortable with them and the work is generally of a very high standard. Prior to that I have tried a number of so called specialists and been disappointed. I am concerned about the lack of Porsche knowledge with the bodywork and probably won't go to this guy in the end as it's nagging at me. I have considered RGA in Vauxhall, south east London. I have been there in the past and was not completely satisfied although the work was of a high standard. I don't mind going out of London as the car will be away a few months I estimate so I'm looking for the best bang for my buck. I already have a new genuine O/S front wing in a box and rear lights and reflector so that's around £1400 towards the cost with those few bits. I estimate another £10-12k but for me that is top end, I would hope for lower. I will need every rubber item on the car replaced for sure. Also a new rear N/S quarter and not sure about inner wing. car looks really shabby to be honest. I think the price I have been quoted is probably right as I think a full glass out bare metal is required but I intend to get more quotes before I commit. One problem of course is getting to the various places to let them see the car. I have a pack of around 25 images which I have been sending out and hopefully that is enough to get me a ball park figure. I'll keep everyone posted once the work is started which I estimate will be by the end of Feb if I can find the right specialist so I guess the search is still on. As for the paint question, it seems to me that you are recommending the modern two pack rather than the traditional method, it's much harder wearing and it's what I have been thinking myself for what is a daily driver. Thanks for the input I'll keep looking for someone special to do the work. Tony
 
I guess too Tony that the car will remain street parked and driven around London as a daily driver when all the work is done? My feeling is that the effort and patience exercised now will reflect in the final quality and only add to the car's value later (cut corners and rushed jobs end up as someone else's bargain on Pistonheads). Very rarely does one place do everything - typically the bodywork/repaint is sub'd out (at profit too). So, someone like RMA who were just up the road from me won't be doing any respray themselves (and neither would I let them!) To be honest thinking that end of Feb the work will start might be a bit ambitious. Anyone any good will be booked up well ahead. At Daytona Coachworx I said bye to the car end November and didn't get it back until the following April/May. But then I said do it thoroughly and not rushed. Check their site out. For sure factor in at least a third again in time for the bits you don't know about that need doing and paying for. If you do need a new n/s quarter then, kerching..! I have got a full xls breakdown of all the OPC parts I used in the end and the costs from Daytona if you want to PM me.
 
ORIGINAL: mcgc0 Interesting Colin... choosing Langley Autocraft. Not heard of them. Did the work on the 3.2 swing it? Sounds very reasonable for all that work too. So, what's the story with yours and Langley?
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Marcus, I was pointed in their direction by JZM, and on the face of it, it's a general garage & MOT centre, but the boss fella, Peter Bartley, I almost think it's like a labour of love for him as he is kind of semi-retired, punts around in a rather nice looking 993. He is however very knowledgeable and various stock repairs are menu priced (e.g. Front & rear screen surround repair, check strap repair). They occasionally advertise in PP. I am not having a full body off respray, I am doing sections as required in affordable chunks. My mate, the guy with the 3.2, you should have met at Le Mans. They did a mini feature on his restoration in PP however many years ago it was.
 
Hi Tony, I can highly recommend Specialised Paintwork in Reading Karl is the man you need to speak to! They are Excellent they did a full respray on my car!! They are based behind Porsche Reading give them a ring. 0118 930 6206 Ben Spackman
 
But how much was your total cost Ben? I'd be interested as I had a completely insane quote and judging by what was in the shop already (Cayenne Turbo going from black to pink for a footballer's wife) my requirements might have been too fiddly and unknown for an old 911...
 
Specialised paintwork used to have a small workshop North of Reading before they moved to their current premises near PC Reading. They used to do a lot of the accident body repairs for Lotus Elises, via SGT in Maidenhead, as well as Porsches. I had my old 944 spruced up there a few times, and they were pretty reasonable on cost at the time and were more than happy to repair rather than replace damaged panels (saved me a new front PU once). With the change of premises, I guess they went into a different market and found they could up the ante in terms of charges. Their work was always top class though, as far as I am aware.
 
HI Guys, thanks for the great responses and suggestions, sorry Ben I didn't get round to ringing you, thanks for the offer. I have been in touch with Tom at Lemass who seems to be giving me a warm fuzzy feeling about the work. Quoted around £15k inc VAT which is on the high side but he did include some parts that I already have so I think he is going to land at around the £12k mark that pretty much every one else has quoted. It's not too far away either and his work looks really good and he can fit me ion from early March. It's going for a service on 7 March (GT One Chertsey) and they will quote as well as they have the car for a week. They prep and then send the car out for paint. may as well while they have it. I'll keep everyone posted about progress and post photos once the work is started. Thank again Tony
 
I used to use RGA in Vauxhall for paint and mechanical issues but was never happy. I now use GTOne for mechanical. I had a full glass out respray done by Lemass last year. If I was in the market for a respray, as you are, I would use Lemass again. Get the modern paint. It looks the same but is more, umm, modern. Ex vat costs: paint is £800, rubbers & seals £1k. Then you need to add labour and any glass/panels. Good luck!
 
Tony, Pm me and I'll send you the invoices from the work I had done 3 years ago at Sportwagen. Quality of work doesn't get any better but you will have to wait. Car had a lot of metal work done to it including fitting of weld in cage, so more than you are asking for, but will give you an accurate idea of cost. Cheers. Ben
 
Hi Guys I'm not sure if yo will see this as I am replying to an old thread but I have had the resto work started, in the end I stayed with GT One in Chertsey as I know them really well, have done for many years and they gave me a lot of time and Peter really went through everything in minute detail. All the estimates came out about the same in the end, around £15k starting price and as was pointed out to me on a number of occasions this is an estimate not a quote so it could and probably will go up if there is more severe rust which I imagine there will be. I felt a little regret at not going to Lemas but the car was at GT One for a service, failed it's MOT while there because of the rust and it never left. I am content with them doing the work. So the car went in at the end of March and I gave the go ahead to start the body work around early April, they anticipate it will take around 4-6 months. They did find some rust in some unexpected places but I imagine at 25 years old we will probably start seeing more and more. It's amazing what lurks beneath the surface. In the meantime I am on the hunt for some new wheels. For ages I wanted Speed line and was happy to settle for RH or even Veloce but now I have a new love affair with modern re-imagining of 18" Fuchs in black which is what i may go for, I have a few months to decide. Nearly dismantled and will be going off to the body people soon for cutting and welding and painting etc. I will add some pictures as soon as I can work out how to make them small enough to attach to a post on the forum. The smallest I can get them in Photoshop is 299k, still too big.
 
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