996 Engine Failure

[Guest]

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As a fairly new owner of a 02 c2cab all this talk of engine changes and failures comes as a real shock! I have very recently exchanged my 02 Boxster for the 996 and up until now I was 'blissfully unaware' of these issues, could anyone please enlighten me about the RMS issue and what, if anything, I can do to check to see if my car has a problem. It is currently under warranty as supplied by the OPC, should I have a check done, if there is one?

Tony G

 

[Guest]

The Boxster also has the RMS issue it's to do with an oil seal that starts to leak. Judging by this thread there would be cause for concern. But we need to be realistic I have had both a Boxster S and a now a 996 for a couple of months and my plan is to enjoy it. If it breaks then i'll deal with it. The cost of the RMS replacement compared to the value of most if any 996 is small, a few hundred pounds. Engine failures seem less common than threads would have us believe and the anecdotal evidence of engines and empty boxes only adds to the mystery and nervousness of owners it doesn't particularly help. I have a warranty on my 996 and shall renew it when it expires. But Porsches are neither cheap to buy nor run that is fact and we all knew that before we bought them.

I fully support the surveys and this has shown RMS to be something that does occur to many members, but Porsche have the real figures and I guess they won't be letting those out in a hurry.

Just enjoy the car and keep the warranty up to date.

 

[garyandjanet]

Just come back from the OPC.

After a breif "con flab" with the sales man about 997 and RMS. He said that PUK will now just replace a seal no questain ask.

Do not know if this is the case, but if it is looks like they are coming to there senses.

 

[blueSL]

Would it be better if Porsche dug deep into their £450m profit and fixed the problem at source, like redesigning the crankcase and oil seals from the ground up?

 

[nottage]

And after 2 years and the warranty has expired?

 

[garyandjanet]

it came across as an age if having a full PSH.

But only Hear Say.

 

[blueSL]

ORIGINAL: nottage

And after 2 years and the warranty has expired?

... you buy a warranty extension. Seems to me we have to think of this mess as simply increasing the cost of running a 996 by £720 a year. I think it would be much better if our friend Wendolin, on his way to collect another award as Germany's best Car Executive, wiped the smirk off his face and applied a large boot to his engineers backsides to fix the problem.

 

[Guest]

That's about the gist of it. We will all have to shell out an extra £720 a year.
But it's not always that easy. I can't get ext warranty cover. Why because after having 7 RMS's fitted (and I see this as their manufacturing fault) they have told me that they wont entertain giving me extended warranty until I replace the engine (at my cost). Catch 22.

 

[Guest]

Does porsche care?
Costs engine failures ? 2% @ £5k cost
RMS seals @ £10 15%
Total costs to porsche per 100 cars:
2x5k + 15x£10 = £10150
income extended g'tee @£750 a year for 3 yrs say 75% - 70x750x3 = £157500 ie an extra £147350 profit for evey 100 911 sold. plus some people will just trade for a new one at 2 years rather than 3 (so an extra 2 cars every 10 yrs )...
Ok the figures are guesswork, but you get my point...
why have 400million profit when by building an unreliable car you can increase that further... only when there are no longer waiting lists for their cars will porsche care.

 

[Mark_Bennett]

OK, new thought...

Of those who have had the RMS replaced under goodwill, who has been recommended (or has decided themselves) to have the Clutch or something else replaced at the same time? After all "while we've got the car apart you may as well..."
[&:]

 

[Guest]

At each RMS change I asked them to inspect it with the go ahead to change it at their discression.
But only on my last 7th RMS did they change it at just under 41k miles. This is the first clutch replacement my car has had.
Also it required a clutch bearing. They said the bearing was severely on its way out and had it gone it could have
cause the entire clutch mechanism to collapse (very expensive). The clutch plate was slightly pitted on one side but there was a fair ammount of meat left on it. They said that because it had started to pit, it was a good idea to change it
while the gearbox was out.

I saw both clutch and bearing. The bearing was very bad!

 

[Guest]

My 996 C2 Tip 2002(previous car) suffered complete engine failure. Exactly 1 day after the warranty expired. The fault was a broken exhaust valve. This was after 32k miles. Total cost £11k based upon a engine replacement. After a few weeks of phone calls and worry, Porsche agreed to pay in full, based on goodwill. After checking some dates, I discovered that I had purchased the car (13 months old), and the OPC offers a minimum of 12 months warranty on there approved used cars. Therefore I was covered on warranty. However, I discovered that the OPC who sold the car to me, and completed the engine replacement where in frank discussions with HO, about who was responsible for the cost. I believe they are still discussing it, and this was some 7 months ago. No worries for me, but adds to the long running saga of Engine/warranty claims.

One thing I was impressed with was Porsche Assist. They were excellent. Apart from that fact they gave me a VW Phaeton to run around in, what a hunk of junk this was for a cool £50k price ticket, love to see them come on the second-hand market.

 

[Geoff_Fields]

It's time that someone finds the cause for all these engine problems. So here is my thinking on the problem for you all to dwell over, but especially the formidable Scoucer.
First of all lets look at the types of failures occurring to the M96 (dreaded 996 and Boxster) engine.
Leaking RMS and intermediate shaft seals, breaking intermediate shafts, bearing failures, cracked or slipped liners, cracked crankcases etc. etc. Also some owners are experiencing gearbox failures!
What we are looking for is a common cause for all of the above. I suggest we start the search with any engine designer's worst nightmare, VIBRATION!
Where to look? The clues are there. What's the most common problem? Oil seals leaking at the rear of the engine. But which one leaks first or at least it did up until the modification? The intermediate shaft seal. I have spoken to an independent that has changed over 40, and in his experience, it was nearly always the intermediate shaft seal, which started weeping first (now it's just the owners).
So just maybe the intermediate shaft is the place to look. What is different to this shaft compared to earlier generations or even the GT1 type used by the current GT3 and Turbo models?
This is where you experts out there have to help me, because I'm no automotive engineer. I think I'm correct in saying that one possible difference is that it has fewer bearings. This coupled together with perhaps over generous engineering tolerances may allow the shaft to suffer vibration and eventually fail oil seals or worse destroy engines?
I hope someone at Porsche AG is reading this forum and is brave enough to respond to the many heartbreaking stories (if they have a heart that is). I take delivery of my 997 next month and my heart is in my mouth!

 

[Tool Pants]

Unfounded rumors.

I was at my local dealer this morning and it was the first time I saw 'the box' and it was not an engine failure. Jeff

 

[Guest]

Hi Jeff,

Well that one fell on 'stony ground'[]

For those followers like me who do not surf every possible website to keep up with the latest developments on the ongoing RMS issue, have you as yet given us 'over here' what you and your fellow owners feel the problem is with the RMS? I did see a short reference to crank off centre on a page earlier - but am not too sure as to whether that is considered to be the main problem with this M96 motor.Point me towards the article if I have missed it already.

Thanks for your informed input so far - always nice to read views from people with oily hands[]

 

[Tool Pants]

If you mean me, and not Geoff.

Here is now mostly outdate info from a tech session we had in 2003 at my local dealer. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=15&st=0&#entry24 The same mechanic, Peter, will put on 987/997 tech session and we are trying to schedule it for April.

The problem is the crankshaft is not exactly in the middle of the seal. This is why there are cars with multiple seal replacements and they still leak. It is not the fault of the seal but the nature of the engine design. The crank spins in a cradle. This cradle is attached to the inside of the crankcase. Our guess is that for some reason on some engines the cradle has moved, thus moving the crank off center. The old air cooled and Turbo/GT2/GT3 do not have this design.

A new seal has just come out. If you are familiar with an oil seal it has a round spring that pushes the lips against a round shaft. A mechanic I know said he was told at training school the spring is a bit tighter. If true this is a band-aid approach, because mechanics were making the spring tighter by making it shorter years ago.

A new bulletin has come out about replacing the bolts for the intermediate shaft flange and rear crankcase. These bolts have a sealant on them, just in case the leak is really from the bolts holes and not the seal. Berny has mentioned this before and this was done to his car.

Yet another tool to install the seal has just come out. The 2003 tool pushed the seal deeper into it's bore. With the new tool the seal is not pushed in so deep, but still deeper than the original version of the tool.

The go-no-go fixture measuring tool I mentioned in 2003 has turned out to be nothing. The 3 mechanics I spoke to have replaced multiple seals on cars that passed the go-no-go test. I have mentioned my friend Jean on this board, who has had 5 seals replaced. The last few seals were replaced after the fixture had come out and Jean's car passed, but still leaked. In fact, Jean was at the 2003 tech session. The mechanics are back to measuring the crank offset in 4 places. The numbers are sent to Porsche in Atlanta and then it is up to Porsche if another seal is put in or a replacement engine.

Come to California in April. If the tech session goes it will be very good as have the ones in the past. Here is a picture I took last week at a nearby dealer that is not my local dealer. Jeff

 

[Guest]

Hi Jeff

Thanks very much for your latest and yes I did mean you. I also have a similar effect on postings on this Board whereby I submit material which for reasons unknown (possibly because of my blunt get to the point style) - (unlike yours I might add) - stops any further discussion as seemed to be the case in your last but one [] I wish my style had the same effect on the wife []

Can you tell me whether Porsche 'accept' the crankshaft movement as the cause of the problem in the US or have they maintained their UK stance of burying their heads in the sand hoping owners will continue to support their cause regardless of crap design somewhere in the motor? Seemingly they have re-engineered the problem into the latest models.

The States 4 year warranty would see most problems showing up in time to enable rectification under warranty by Porsche, but can you tell us what 'line' they take for failures outside that period please?

Thanks for the invite to your next Tech session - love to be there but our imminent cruise has taken the readies for this year - would appreciate a DVD if that's possible though [8|]

Thanks again and keep well,

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: carrera4boy

But Ive done 20,000 miles in my 996 C4 and haven't had so much as a scratched number plate. (My engine will probably blow, now ive said that)

But is it just me or are you lot driving your cars pretty hard from cold starts etc?. I very rarely take mine over 3500revs except when im on the Nurburgring of course. My Cartier Watch states it's waterproof, so I swim with it on every day. 16 months later its full of water and rust and completely knackered and I'm told that these things just happen.

Higgy,
I know your wife and she drives like a crazed lunatic on those Bracknell back roads, always leaving late to pick the kids up. Im not surprised she blew her engine. She's on 2 wheels on the Met Office roundabout sometimes! And she probably tells you she's a right 'Driving Miss Daisy'. [8D]

Why does one RMS on a 20,000 996 C2 start leaking and another doesn't. If the cars are identical then it can only come down to one thing....YOU!!

Hope i'm not going to be barred from the forum for saying that Just IMOHO
Si

Chap

I feel impelled to respond to this; each to this own etc. but what is the point of owning a car like this if you don't drive it properly? I don't thrash my car my many people's standards but do take it to 6 or 7K rpm on occasion when warmed up for a quick thrash, but not to take it above 3.5K rpm ever sounds like a Roller may be more your style...

 

[Guest]

A quick update: Alison tracked me down by phone and I gave her the full story of my exploding engine and subsequent arguments and negotiations with my OPC, Porsche GB and Germany.

Some interesting figures: my engine failed in November 2003. My OPC originally quoted £9,500 inc VAT for the new engine (£6,500) and labour (£3,000). During one of our many arguments one of the people at the dealership let slip that the engine only really cost £2,700 and the rest was profit. This is why I ended up paying only £2,700 and Porsche paid the rest. Now, they have just quoted Alison £11,500 for engine and labour. There's something not quite right here.

And to set the record straight about the aspersions cast by Si upon my wife's driving: there were two black C2s in my area at the time. The one in Bracknell (reg H1GGY) was not mine (H16GY H). We discovered the existence of the other one when, would you believe, we moved house to the Bracknell area in 2005! Happy to report that my CLK is enjoying the backroads, and the Met Office roundabout would make a great racetrack if it were not for the four sets of traffic lights around it!

 

[carrera4boy]

LOL.[]

Please don't take it personally, What are Porsches for if you can't sprint in them once in a while. I used to race her in my Audi TT and was always frustrated when i caught her up at the lights only to find it was a grey haired old man[][]

That's why i bought a Carrera 4. And a fine robust car it is too.

Richard, i think your case speaks volumes in terms of the way you dealt with the whole situation thus saving you and your wife £'000s of pounds. It's just such a shame when Porsche can pick and choose who they want to 'shaft'. Alison is looking at a bill for £15,000 and you were in the same situation and paid £2700!!!

Thanks for responding in this matter.
Regards
Si