997.2TT and very light front end

[garyw]

ORIGINAL: RJKflyer
However, I will be making it clear that anything less than an absolutely perfect set up will be a punitive experience.

But it will be well within Porsche's expected tolerances.. so the argument runs out of steam with them...

For the 'majority' of owners the factory setting are perfect but for those that do enjoy the car that bit more it just needs that little tweak..
One of the advantages of the Porsche 997 is that it is so tunable to the drivers requirements- I do see that as a bonus but accept that it can work as a negative in some cases where you just want to drive it out of the box.

The point should be made that there are other companies that can do the Geo work for you but as you have read, experience really does count.. []
And Chris has plenty of that experience.

The car is worked upon leaving it still within factory tolerances so does not affect the warranty and is in the region of about £350 for the base work to be done- in balance to the 120K you've spent it's very little money for the rewards it gives.

When Chris first setup his business he toured the Regional meetings showing off his wares, skills and enthusiasm- from there he's become very busy which again says a lot. I'll perhaps speak to him to arrange a register visit in order for the newer owners to see the magic- when you actually see him move the rear camber (all within tolerances) you'll see just how much the car can changed !!

garyw

 

[RJKflyer]

Gary,

I get the tolerances thing, but I do not buy that being within tolerances (on a 200mph supercar) permits it to drive actually quite badly - that's either intolerably wide tolerances, or very sloppy setting. 'Out of the box', as it is, is actually unacceptable. If I took this to Germany to see whether it really does nearly 200mph, it would kill me as is.

One worry I am left with is that if it's only a 'tweak' between widow-maker and planted, am I going to have this debacle every 6 months? Or are you guys finding that 'fixed' means good and proper?

What I do take great comfort from however is that the 911 can drive superbly when set up correctly. Right now, I'd be quicker point to point in my old car, and also need no changes of underwear!

So, thanks to all for the support and guidance.

Richard

 

[944s2]

Or could it just be the relatively nose "heavy" front end of an AUDI RS as opposed to the relatively rear "heavy" rear of Porsche

 

[marlin]

ORIGINAL: RJKflyer

Gary,

I get the tolerances thing, but I do not buy that being within tolerances (on a 200mph supercar) permits it to drive actually quite badly - that's either intolerably wide tolerances, or very sloppy setting. 'Out of the box', as it is, is actually unacceptable. If I took this to Germany to see whether it really does nearly 200mph, it would kill me as is.

One worry I am left with is that if it's only a 'tweak' between widow-maker and planted, am I going to have this debacle every 6 months? Or are you guys finding that 'fixed' means good and proper?

What I do take great comfort from however is that the 911 can drive superbly when set up correctly. Right now, I'd be quicker point to point in my old car, and also need no changes of underwear!

So, thanks to all for the support and guidance.

Richard

Widow maker, you are having a laugh . Just about every review on Audi dams the steering experience , it could be you have not adjusted to the feel of your Porsche [8|]

 

[clarkes]

I paid about £300 for a half day session.

 

[garyw]

Mines been in twice in 5 years, only for the second time after a major pothole hit and to have suspension work done..(top mounts)

However The 911 does drive and feel different to anything else and can take some time to adjust to it's style (that's what your day at Silverstone should show/teach).
A friend of mine couldn't stand the light front end after his years in a BMW and felt it was bobbing all the time.

In a straight line mine goes a little light at the front around 90-110leptons but after that it seems to hunkers down and go rock solid.
Around bends if driven like a standard car it can be 'very exciting'!!! [&:] but adjusted to the load and feel- its inspirational and exits like a 911 only can..[]

garyw

 

[Alex L]

ORIGINAL: RJKflyer

Gary,

I get the tolerances thing, but I do not buy that being within tolerances (on a 200mph supercar) permits it to drive actually quite badly - that's either intolerably wide tolerances, or very sloppy setting. 'Out of the box', as it is, is actually unacceptable. If I took this to Germany to see whether it really does nearly 200mph, it would kill me as is.

As others have said, it may have been perfect from the factory but as your suspension settles and the rear sags faster than the front (as it's heavier) it changes the rake, the camber and the toe. You cannot avoid this - the nose will go lighter as the rake changes. The only thing you can do is get the geo adjusted accurately after it has stopped sagging (a few thousand miles). You also won't be able to fix the ride height sag via an OPC (rake). Chris has his methods of adjusting this on warranty cars but I upgraded my factory Bilsteins to top of the range ones - which come with ride height adjust-ability. So my rake is always where I want it to be.

One worry I am left with is that if it's only a 'tweak' between widow-maker and planted, am I going to have this debacle every 6 months? Or are you guys finding that 'fixed' means good and proper?

Chris told me the other day that after the suspension has settled, you should only need a re-geo every 2 years. It;s more like 6 months for me though as I am completely OCD over the tiniest variation in toe/camber. I can feel it instantly, but then I do drive the car as opposed to most other Porsche owners (not on this register) who only use the car to commute to work in.

What I do take great comfort from however is that the 911 can drive superbly when set up correctly. Right now, I'd be quicker point to point in my old car, and also need no changes of underwear!

My Audi RS6 is damn fast cross-country and could keep with most 911s, but with some Center Gravity handling and some twisty/bumpy/uneven UK b-roads then nothing is faster that a sorted 911 Turbo. I think Mr. Rohrl would agree with me on that.

Given the collective experiences on this board, your quest with the OPC won't help you much, and is just going to waste your time. Your only options really are to go to the likes of Parr or Center Gravity OR accept that it's about as good as it's going to get right now through your dealers.

PS: I drove the new 991 today - and although it was very planted, it's still not as planted as a 997 set up by Chris F.

 

[RJKflyer]

[/quote]

Widow maker, you are having a laugh . Just about every review on Audi dams the steering experience , it could be you have not adjusted to the feel of your Porsche

Then you've either not read review of, or not driven, the B7 RS4 - one of the few Audis that does have a sorted steering!

 

[RJKflyer]

I see Parr's mentioned - appreciating that CG is clearly very highly thought of, but 3 hours from me, how might Parr's compare?

 

[Alex L]

I started with Parr, then went onto CG. I'd never go back!

Parr will do you a good sports setup but will not tailor it to your liking at all. They will tell you what you should have and wont tell you any of the settings.

CG will work with you for half a day and you won't go home until you are (very) happy with the results. All settings will be available to you to see and Chris will custom tweak them until they achieve exactly what you are after.

It's a custom suit vs off the rack...

CG are 2 hours drive from me and even a half day slot is definitely worth the trip. I'm sure even the Cornwall guys will tell you it's worth the trip.

 

[maxtraeger]

Just adding to the response trail - I took my 997.1TT to Chris under warranty as I was sideways on Chiswick roundabout. Diagnosis was failure of front right shock but almost no visible leakage. Replaced both front shocks with Chris despite warranty being in place as the service team are broadly trained whereas Chris is a "specialist". Since then, I regulary take the car to Germany at 120mph+ sessions without any doubt on where I can point the car.

I would not waste the time to get it fixed by the OPC - they hardly do a drive around the block with it.
Max

 

[marlin]

ORIGINAL: RJKflyer

Widow maker, you are having a laugh . Just about every review on Audi dams the steering experience , it could be you have not adjusted to the feel of your Porsche

Then you've either not read review of, or not driven, the B7 RS4 - one of the few Audis that does have a sorted steering!
[/quote]

Correct I have done neither , it doesn't make me a bad person []

 

[Oggy]

Hmmm, I'm really curious now as to whats so bad about the handling of your car ??

Perhaps (as already suggested) this is your first 911 and you just haven't tuned into it yet ??

Rear engine does cause "bobbing" of front end under accelleration, tendency to understeer if you go too fast into corners (as the weight in the back is trying to push the front wide...but also gives unbeatable traction out of corners and amazing tactile steering. Secret is always slow(er) in and FAST FAST FAST out [8D] These are the things that people generally love about 911s...takes a while to get used to but amazingly satisfying when you do !

Did you ever read the stories in the 80s / early 90s of city yuppies getting a huge bonus....going straight out and buying a 911....then going straight through a hedge backwards ??? [] Reason was....too fast into corner....aagghhhh understeer....lift off....back snaps round like a pendulum and it's topiary here we come ! Modern 911s still have this in their DNA but it's been calmed and sanitised over the yrs with chassis improvements and PASM / PSM / dynamic engine mounts etc etc. Is why some people still love the older 911s more than the newer ones...more of a challenge but more rewarding in their eyes.

So I'm guessing that you just haven't got used to this yet (I can't believe it feels as dangerous as you make out...unless it's 2 halves welded together [][])...and with 500BHP to play with, it's very easy to come into corners too quickly []

Just take a while to get used to it....try the slow-in (NO LIFT OFF), fast out approach, it's addictive and very effective. Then if you still un-convinced, get the GEO checked for sure. If still not satisfied, drive a GT3 (turn-in is simply incredible)...if still not got it...there is no hope for you I'm afraid []

 

[944s2]

Aew there no 997 turbo owners near by who could offer dirve give second opinion?

 

[RJKflyer]

I get fully the slow in, fast out. Not being any sort of hero on the road, I'd rather have the time to sort it out on the way out, not on the way in, irrespective of the car.

The issue is VERY firmly not to do with excessive speed in - even a 70mph gentle but slightly uneven sweeper will feel very imprecise and fidgety and most significantly with it wanting to be off this way and that - and under those circumstances there's little weight shifting about. Same with 120 mph in a straight line - it picks up every bump and the steering twitches and the front actually does dart this way and that (not just 'light').

I've driven other 911s: a 996 C4S in road use, two GT3s on a track and they didn't feel like this - and i don't mean at the limit - just a generally 'planted' feel as you all say this should also be. Mine feels a little more like the '73 2.7RS I've also driven, although to be fair to that, fidgety though it was, didn't actually feel like it was pulled to and fro, just 'light' like you'd expect from a 30 yo 911.

And no, I accept it's not 'dangerous' in normal use, but I want to have the security to blast past on a straight road without the camber pulling me to and fro. It really does feel like it's toed-out too far...

 

[garyw]

ORIGINAL: 944s2

Aew there no 997 turbo owners near by who could offer dirve give second opinion?

One of the great reason we have so many events where we drive our cars, giving owners and members a chance to chat, compare and assist one another.[]

I'd happily swap or assist where I can but fear that I'm a bit too far away this time round.

garyw

 

[marlin]

ORIGINAL: RJKflyer

I get fully the slow in, fast out. Not being any sort of hero on the road, I'd rather have the time to sort it out on the way out, not on the way in, irrespective of the car.

The issue is VERY firmly not to do with excessive speed in - even a 70mph gentle but slightly uneven sweeper will feel very imprecise and fidgety and most significantly with it wanting to be off this way and that - and under those circumstances there's little weight shifting about. Same with 120 mph in a straight line - it picks up every bump and the steering twitches and the front actually does dart this way and that (not just 'light').

I've driven other 911s: a 996 C4S in road use, two GT3s on a track and they didn't feel like this - and i don't mean at the limit - just a generally 'planted' feel as you all say this should also be. Mine feels a little more like the '73 2.7RS I've also driven, although to be fair to that, fidgety though it was, didn't actually feel like it was pulled to and fro, just 'light' like you'd expect from a 30 yo 911.

And no, I accept it's not 'dangerous' in normal use, but I want to have the security to blast past on a straight road without the camber pulling me to and fro. It really does feel like it's toed-out too far...

I would say there is something seriously wrong with this car, in view of the comments above [8|]

 

[garyw]

ORIGINAL: marlin
I would say there is something seriously wrong with this car, in view of the comments above [8|]

nah! Richard has described a mis-aligned car perfectly...

See what the dealer says/does and if they give it the green light, then go somewhere who knows Geometry
That way the only cost is time..

garyw

 

[chrismouzou]

Hi iam a gen 2tt owner done a visit to chris at centre gravity- couldnt believe the diffrence to my car after chris had done his job- chris at centre gravity is about 2 hours from me (good excuse to get the car out for a long drive) cost £300 wished i had gone to him sooner- cost to me 2 new front tyres which where wearing out on the inside





Chris

 

[glamdring]

Yep £300 when he did my gen1 C2 last summer