A huge 'thank you' to the GT4 design team ...

[ralphmusic]

I'll bite...

1) GT Dept build Car - No they don't - they did create it but it is built at Osnabruck alongside the cooking versions 2) GT Race Legacy and Pedigree - For Cayman it is not, and engine only just introduced into race cars

[link=http://www.car-revs-daily.com/2015/05/16/2015-porsche-911-gt3r-vs-gt3-cup-vs-gt3-rsr/]http://www.car-revs-daily...vs-gt3-cup-vs-gt3-rsr/[/link]

3) Rare - Mid Engine - Manual Shift - Yes, for Porsche 4) GT3 Suspension & Brake Components - Yes it has those 5) Balance & Feel on all surfaces - Very good possibly brilliant but not unique 6) Race car sound - Not really - this is a race car sound - [link]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha0DBZyMywk[/link] 7) 918 & RS Interior Seats & Cabin - 918 seat looks great, rest is GTS nice 8) Aesthetically Beautiful inside & out - eye of the beholder 9) Cracking Value £££ - Yes - it is the combination of factors that make it so good plus it is addressing a longstanding unmet need in the Porsche range What could be better - But would then unquestionably be a better car than 991 GT3 Porsche but not at Half the Price - therefore not within the design brief! 1) Gearing - Probably PDK - Absolutely for track use and in London traffic 2) Bespoke Engine - You can modify it to get >430PS without internal mods - why would Porsche bother with a bespoke engine 3) Tad Lighter - tad will not offset 'mature' drivers who like comfort

Great car but no PDK so not for me

 

[CLIFFWILKINS]

I know everyone is not always in agreement with Mr D but respect to him he now has a GT4 and still acknowledges the CR is still a dam good car. Most when they move on to the more updated model tend to whinge on about how inferior there old model was to there new steed.

It's called progress.

 

[flat6]

I think the 987 Spyder arrived when people weren't ready for such a car from Porsche. People liked the look of the thing and the concept but Boxster buyers voted with their feet and could not give up a folding electric roof for a manually detached affair.

Then as some more people bought one and it was commended for how it was very good to drive with its passive, lowered suspension and reduced kerb weight, interest started to grow in it as one of the best driver's car options in Porsche's range and vs alternative marques. And to people coming from say a Lotus Elise, the roof was not a issue and they got a more comfortable, usable but still raw car.

I think what initially held the R back was that, coming after the Spyder, whilst it had the same mechanical ingredients to make it a good driver's car, there was a bit of an anticlimax after the reworking that Porsche had done to the Boxster's body to produce a Spyder and the R 'only' got the already available Aerokit Cayman front and rear spoilers.

Fast forward to the present and many have cottoned on to what a good choice they are and the negatives at the launch of both of them is buried in the past.

For the 981 replacements, Porsche decided to attach the Spyder roof and make it folding to make the car more appealing to the less hardcore, but maintaining the original silhoette, whilst the GT4 goes further into mechanical enhancements.

The reason I asked the question is because there's sometimes more talk about selling the GT4 onto someone else who [perhaps hasn't driven one] but is desperate to try one out, rather than talk about how good the car is to keep and enjoy it, even for a year (which would still be free motoring). So if its the second owners of the GT4 that really appreciate it, in that way it is similar to what happened with the 987, just that the GT4 can be sold as a profit whereas the Spyder and R were loss making because they were the first to try something a bit different.

As I say, there's sometimes more talk of the desire to sell the GT4 than the thrill of driving it, some prepared to sell it straight away with little desire to get into the thrill of driving it (i'd want to get a few thousand miles of joy out of the experience before selling it). It's as if there's an after market for the car which some of the first owners hope to capitalise on whereby they don't want the car but hopefully someone else wants it more and will pay overs to get it, despite the first owner, not being that overwhelmed with it to keep it for a while, would rather than flip it, that decision possibly even made before delivery.

It just made me question, is it really that good and are the people that are prepared to pay such a high premium over list for it doing so because current owners and media have been so convincing on how good it is (but they haven't had them long) or because they are just so desperate to try out what Porsche has held off doing for so long and have the money to do so. There's also often mention of the desire for an RS which indicates Porsche hasn't gone far enough. It's possibly the first car to get a GT'x' badge without having an engine developed by said department, with a red line at say 9000rpm for that extra level of exhilaration, so perhaps that's where the desire for the next iteration comes from. I don't know.

Just hoping to continue hearing on here how good the car is to own and enjoy, rather than magazine reviews. It was actually on forums that the Spyder and R made a name for themselves. Yes the magazines commended them (apart from the Spyder roof which they slated and put people off) but that wasn't enough to get them sold at launch, it was what owners thought of them that generated the interest in them later on. Th 981s have done much better, having sold out at launch but that doesn't tell me anything as they hadn't turned a wheel when they sold out.

 

[MrDemon]

I think what initially held the R back was that, coming after the Spyder, whilst it had the same mechanical ingredients to make it a good driver's car, there was a bit of an anticlimax after the reworking that Porsche had done to the Boxster's body to produce a Spyder and the R 'only' got the already available Aerokit Cayman front and rear spoilers.

The R was honed over the Spyder, with bespoke ARB's, bespoke MAP for the 330BHP, bespoke exhaust, and black headlights the Spyder just had all normal items and the map from a basic Cayman, Porsche always makes the cayman spend 2 extra weeks on the handling dept to hone it to be always better than a Boxster. (so they said on my visit with them)

Fact is the R is a better car than the Spyder, it just is, I have kept my Spyder though as to me it's more special but the R was a better car all round, my Spyder runs the R parts ;-) and more of course.

 

[flat6]

Those differences you reference are correct; i'm summarizing the mechanical changes as the same in terms of passive and lowered, not the subtleties of the engine map, exhaust or ARB differences (which incidentally are not the types of things that will make someone choose tin top if they want an open top, just like there's a market for the 981 Spyder no matter how many GT3 parts are on the GT4, but that wasn't the point I was making). I was referring to the anticlimax of the visual changes over standard Cayman at the launch of the Cayman R. It had nothing else going against it like the Spyder did with its fiddly roof. But to the layman it was just lowered and had 10hp extra, so it seemed a bit expensive, when actually it was so much more and worth the extra price over an S. But with the Spyder there was the significant visual appeal that created attraction regardless of how it drove but the roof put them off. I heard a story of someone seeing a Spyder in the showroom and buying one without realising or thinking to ask how the roof worked until they had taken delivery. They then sold it straight back!

 

[flat6]

As you say, the Spyder feels more special to you and there are others who feel that way, regardless of what additional bespoke subtleties the R might have or how it is considered to be 'better'. As you have confirmed, that's not necessarily what makes people hold onto cars or makes them desirable. It can be a combination of the tangible and intangible. Just like with the GT4, there's a strong intangible desire for one without even seeing one let alone driving one. Then there's the tangible which comes from driving it or reading the spec sheet about how many GT3 bits it has or whatever floats your boat.

 

[CarreraGTS]

Mr D - I don't think buying a GT car is brand snobbery, not for me, i am a perfectionist ... i would prefer to call it better engineered by people like Andreas P and his team ... The same group of engineers that build Le Mans and GT race cars, and the legacy and philosophies that run inside that workshop and design team - these guys know their stuff ... unlike some other people ! Snobbery is not a factor, Perfectionistic methodology is ...

 

[CarreraGTS]

I know everyone is not always in agreement with Mr D but respect to him he now has a GT4 and still acknowledges the CR is still a dam good car. Most when they move on to the more updated model tend to whinge on about how inferior there old model was to there new steed.

It's called progress.

Cliff - No doubt the CR is a good car ... i am not here to personalise any arguments, Mr D can do that for all of us ... HaHa I am purely sticking up for a Car that has just been adulated by the World's Press and Media! Not Knocking a perfectly good sports car in the Cayman R ...

 

[spyderwhite]

I agree with what flat6.Imho the gt4 is everything the CR should have been,to me the CR was no more than a runout special,why? Yes it got a 'remap' so did the Cayman sport and RS 60 before it ,it also had some nice extras thrown in a bit of weight saving that mostly came from alloy doors( which the 997.2 also has for UK market to reduce CO2) Aircon delete and bucket seats but for everything else it might as well been a caymanS! The 981 Gts is the new CR!

I drove a CR on release and was hugely disapointed against my 987.1s! 6 months later I bought the 987spyder for more the way it looked and although it's the same DNA the spyder with its bespoke bodywork made it more of a special car! I am not knocking the CR as its a great car but so is the standard CaymanS and for those who race the CR then change everything ie suspension and brakes you might as well start out with a standard CS.

Cliff wilkins I would pay little attention to what mrD writes it wasn't that long ago he was posting the spyder was better than the cr now it's the other way round and next week the lotus will be the better car!from his test drive at pec he has always given me the impression of flipping Gt4 so he could get in to a car like a 458 for £30k less which you can't knock him for but for a lotus he should have given up is slot

 

[MrDemon]

you still harping on about me flipping my GT4 (which is not flipped) , it must get your goat lol or you are just upset you sold the better feeling 2012 Spyder I was wise and kept mine, I just wish I could have kept my R as well as the GT4.

The R is the better all round car, the Spyder more fun, they are much the same as we all know.

 

[MrDemon]

Mr D - I don't think buying a GT car is brand snobbery, not for me, i am a perfectionist ... i would prefer to call it better engineered by people like Andreas P and his team ... The same group of engineers that build Le Mans and GT race cars, and the legacy and philosophies that run inside that workshop and design team - these guys know their stuff ... unlike some other people ! Snobbery is not a factor, Perfectionistic methodology is ...

I wish it were perfection and better engineered, but it has a de-tuned engine, no RS light weight bits, long gears and adjustable sus which is NOT adjustable unless you buy adjustable toe links to allow some adjustment !

The car been firmly halted by Porsche at a performance window which is a shame. and to put it right would cost £8k(plus a set of short ratio's) or one waits for the RS which I hope does not have the restrictions.

It's a bloody good car all the same, don't get me wrong, but those 4 things do my head in, and lets not talk about less steering feel, I guess that's the norm in new cars now !

de-tuned engine

de-tuned engine

de tuned engine

 

[ralphmusic]

Why don't you all drop over to the thread on GT4 race car and take a look at the video from a visit to DeMan Racing. Much more interesting

 

[MrDemon]

I cannot see any one tuning their GT4 in the UK bar 2 or 3 guys. esp putting an ECU tune on it even though you get 40bhp to let the thing breath, takers will be minimum.

 

[CLIFFWILKINS]

Don't believe all you read from these so called mags and media its all about living enjoying a car on the road in the real world and the CR does it surperb yes the brakes could be a tad better and another 20 30 bhp would be nice but not essential for today's roads it hold the road like a limpet. What more can you buy under 50 k in the Porsche world this good.

I hear about this GT history and yes quiet a few of us have owned the GT brand some of us now choose to go Cayman R or Gt4 or Spyder. I personally like my CR more for the Road than GT

PS yes I have had a Cayman Sport limited edition gen 1 its Good motor but a CR is better.

 

[ChrisW]

I loved my CR. At around £40k they are great value. Are we going round in circles ?

The GT4 is a new car to learn, and I'm looking forward to playing --- as I did with my R for four years --- spending as much time as I can going round in circles

 

[CarreraGTS]

What the Hell ... A psychologist would send us all to the Nut House ... I think we should all sell our underpowered, de-tuned, over engineered pieces of Cr*p and buy Ferraris then start an argument on who has the fastest, lightest or most valuable ... #MoreToLife! #FeelSomeLove!

 

[MrDemon]

its all about living enjoying a car on the road in the real world and the CR does it surperb yes the brakes could be a tad better and another 20 30 bhp would be nice but not essential for today's roads it hold the road like a limpet. What more can you buy under 50 k in the Porsche world this good.

you can think what a car with >350 bhp and PCCBS which have the 6 pots and 350mm disks all round and adjustable suspension is like then.

that is road perfection , my tuned Spyder is so good to drive it just put a smile on your face.

The GT4 is just not as fun on the road as a sorted R or Spyder, as we know the Spyder roof is an arse ,so not an every day car, so I would say tune your Cayman R, fit 996 GT3 calipers with Gyro 350mm disks and fit a cargraphic manifold to it.

you will fall in love with the R even more and it will sound better than a GT4

I cannot put my finger on why the GT4 is less fun to people who have not had a lot of cars, inc GT cars, but it's down to a few things, car feels underpowered now for the new tyre foot print and chassis set up and ratios, and the feel of the whole car while more solid and better, it just soaks up the road at 90mph one handed. while some people will love the way they can go faster with less effort and feel, for me it's taken a bit of fun out of the car on the road.

so for [link=https://www.porscheclubgb.com/forum/Profile/33043/]CarreraGTS[/link] a faster car can feel under powered even though it's faster, my 350BHp Spyder has less bhp but does not feel underpowered (but as you poo pooed the R and spyder, you will never get to feel how good they were)

like many GT3 owners it seems the GT4 has given people blinkered views, with talk of "perfection" and "master piece" which is just cringeworthy

only way to extract fun from the GT4 will be on track, the cars too good for the road and I don't think we will see many GT4 on the track, Chris W will be loving his though after he has dialed out the understeer but tracking a car like this costs MONEY like £500 a go plus so for me 3 a year is all I can manage.

 

[Steve Brookes]

I loved my CR. At around £40k they are great value. Are we going round in circles ?

The GT4 is a new car to learn, and I'm looking forward to playing --- as I did with my R for four years --- spending as much time as I can going round in circles

I loved your CR too Chris! [] Can't remember anything significant coming past us at Spa, Donington and Zandvoort. With me being a good passenger, you always knew that you could push on and get the most out of it. [] So far we've only had those couple of dryish laps at Oulton in your GT4 to compare them...but my guess is that the CR with its PDK and PCCBs (and especially with Cup2s) would not be far behind the GT4 on a lap.

 

[CarreraGTS]

its all about living enjoying a car on the road in the real world and the CR does it surperb yes the brakes could be a tad better and another 20 30 bhp would be nice but not essential for today's roads it hold the road like a limpet. What more can you buy under 50 k in the Porsche world this good.

you can think what a car with >350 bhp and PCCBS which have the 6 pots and 350mm disks all round and adjustable suspension is like then.

that is road perfection , my tuned Spyder is so good to drive it just put a smile on your face.

The GT4 is just not as fun on the road as a sorted R or Spyder, as we know the Spyder roof is an arse ,so not an every day car, so I would say tune your Cayman R, fit 996 GT3 calipers with Gyro 350mm disks and fit a cargraphic manifold to it.

you will fall in love with the R even more and it will sound better than a GT4

I cannot put my finger on why the GT4 is less fun to people who have not had a lot of cars, inc GT cars, but it's down to a few things, car feels underpowered now for the new tyre foot print and chassis set up and ratios, and the feel of the whole car while more solid and better, it just soaks up the road at 90mph one handed. while some people will love the way they can go faster with less effort and feel, for me it's taken a bit of fun out of the car on the road.

so for [link=https://www.porscheclubgb.com/forum/Profile/33043/]CarreraGTS[/link] a faster car can feel under powered even though it's faster, my 350BHp Spyder has less bhp but does not feel underpowered (but as you poo pooed the R and spyder, you will never get to feel how good they were)

like many GT3 owners it seems the GT4 has given people blinkered views, with talk of "perfection" and "master piece" which is just cringeworthy

only way to extract fun from the GT4 will be on track, the cars too good for the road and I don't think we will see many GT4 on the track, Chris W will be loving his though after he has dialed out the understeer but tracking a car like this costs MONEY like £500 a go plus so for me 3 a year is all I can manage.

Mr D - I just love the way you shout your opinion even though people with more skill, experience & knowledge around the World and in the Press than you; say the car is a work of art and a masterpiece, you still say the GT4 is poor, detuned, heavy, long and "No Fun" and not a patch on your Cayman R is absolutely Crazy! ... I think you need to step back and consider other peoples opinion once in a while ... Sure you have more of those attributes than me but not everyone. I would love you to argue with Andreas P or Chris Harris - Although i think it comes down to you simply getting a kick out of being "oh contrare" ... But we love you #AlphaMale

 

[MrDemon]

not shouting anything THIS IS SHOUTING

not once have I said the GT4 is poor !

or "NO fun"

it does have a detuned engine and very long ratios though, those are just plain facts. to say other wise makes you look a fool !

if you want to think the car you have bought is a masterpiece, I am very happy for you and you have found that 1 car you can now keep for ever, the perfect car built as Porsche intended and can NOT be made better in any way. I on the other hand if I keep it will unlock the cars engine and performance window.

has sweet FA to do with skill and what the press say or what Andreas P or Chris Harris say lol ffs are you reading what you are saying ?

please read my posts and don't misquote them, too many misquotes in your post to correct you on every one. !

I am sorry to say but it does read you own the GT4 because of snob value esp when you state you would NOT buy a R or a Spyder due to them NOT being GT cars !

you are sounding like a GT3 owner atm which is very annoying but I am all ears, as I find it amusing.