Are we really the poor relations...?

[Frenchy]

Porsche Centre Kendal are spot on, always have a craic, make a coffee if you call in person, if you think about it us lads with the old un's are probably a significant percentage of parts sales, i could have bought a very decent car for the money i have passed over their counter over the years !
One of the family owners comes to various shows and Le Mans classic with us he is an enthusiast, he dropped me some parts last night at a club night.
I never feel like a poor relation when visiting.
As most of you will know i have recently bought a 997 Carrera 2S which me makes me smile and is a lovely thing, that said a lot of the component parts are nowhere near the quality of the 944, all the exhaust fixings look as though they will break or round off should i come to remove them.
A good mate has a lovely 944 Turbo in Guards Red (87 220) he does not frequent here depite much nagging from me, his car was parked on my drive with the 997 i pointed at his and said" that car was built and put together by engineers" pointing to the 997 "that car was built under the supervision of accountants"
Some of the comments on here are bang on as we do undersell these cars, my original plan was to sell the 944's to finance the 997, the 220 turbo has now gone and i know i am going to regret letting that car go as it was a belter ( despite what went on after sale) i fear it will not be looked after as it deserves and as we know they can quickly detiriate.
This has happened to a very nice turbo recently bought locally the guy has manged to ruin it in 2 years.
After putting the Turbo S back on the road and a lovely drive out last night it is going nowhere and if anything i have further plans for it, yes it is modified but everything is bolt on and the car can be put back to factory very easily, next job will be one of Tom Barks ECU's.
Snapped at a guy at work who commented that i had bought a "proper" Porsche when he heard i had bought a 997, he has never sat in a Porsche never mind driven one, he drives a BMW 118 D and has just treated himself to a caravan, nuff said []
If one of my cars had to go, i think i know now which it would be []

 

[scam75]

Echo a lot of comments, the 2 guys in parts in Glasgow OPC, Danny and John, both bend over backwards to help me. 2 better guys I could not find!

Stuart

 

[George Elliott]

This is not the first time you have said this George, and I know where you are coming from.

Problem is, there are some high rolling air cooled 911 fans out there. People with names you would recognise from films and addresses in exotic locations, for whom laying down half a million dollars on a restored and improved Porsche 911 is as much of a financial concequence as you or I should replace our StarWars DVD set with the BlueRay version (or something along those lines) Whereas the 944 has some followers, but none of them willing to drop $500k on a 944.

That is not to say that people do not love the 944, and it is not to say there are not some people spending large sums on their cars.

I have had customers quite frequently over the years who have spent large amounts on their 944's, more than you would imagine have spent approaching a tenth of what what a Singer 911 costs.. And those who have, would often have got a lot more for their money if they had known what they wanted when they started, followed my advice and started with a better base car.. Not only that, but if they had known what they wanted in the begining, their car would have been completed in weeks rather than waiting months.. My schedule goes four weeks in advance, someone changing their mind or saying "Let me sleep on it" often means we then can't carry on for another 4 weeks.

Recently I have had a change of position on "Project cars", in the past the customer could buy a Mexican turbo if that is what they wanted, they could follow the advice of some random guy on Rennlist if they really had faith in them, even if I did advise against it, and a customer could change their mind as often as they like and I would let a project evolve for them rather than being a bit more strict with them and saying "Hey, I thought the original plan was..." .. But it has taken me years to realise the end result is I end up with a car here for ages, the car ends up being a shadow of the car it could have been and the customers less than great choices end up biting them in their bum and making me look bad in the process... So, I recently decided "No more!".

Now, if someone comes to me wanting advice about tuning or project cars, I give it freely.. Every day I spend a great deal of time sending out essay length emails to people explaining my advice, all the pro's and con's, and a lot of time getting to know what the owner really wants.. Which is often not the 400bhp and race targeted suspension they ask for.. But also I am quite clear with them that if I do not believe their car is going to be the vision that we both share, and that we are on the same page, then I will not be involved.. I will still offer them advice, but the car will not be coming into the workshop. I also usually warn them that unless this is a car for life, what they are spending is unlikely to repay them when it comes to sell the car, except in some very rare cases.

There was a car we converted years ago to a 3.0 Turbo, we let him call the shots, he followed the advice of RennList gods, and decided some aspects of the project he would revisit later... He ended up with a Mexican turbo we complained about installing, he igored advice about nearly every aspect of the project, instead sticking with the advice of people on Rennlist, and many years and thousands of pounds after I last touched the car, the owner still has dissapointing performance, has been seen on forums complaining about aspects of the project I performed badly, even though I have documented evidence that he asked for those specific items to be installeed in that exact way, and the chap still fails to see we modify well worn 2.5 944 Turbos which produce more power than his 3.0 turbo with every gadget and Rennlist recommendation installed.. To be honest, sadly, too many 944 projects go this way, we just do not want to be part of that anymore.

We still take on projects.. either just a few modifications through to a complete rebuild or restoration. We do something named a "Porsche Legend", where we take a limited production run example car as the vision, such as a 924GTS, 944 Turbo Cup, 968 Turbo S, 964RS, 993RS or even the RUF-CTR, and decide how could Porsche have made it better today? What better parts are available today which did not exist back then, what advances have their been in the understanding of particular areas of the car, and build something which is a recreation of that "Porsche Legend" but better, much better, not because Porsche were "Pants", but because time has moved forward.

We have a customer who is dropping off his car next week.. He bought a 968 and decided he loved it, but wanted more, much more... He wanted air con, his didnt have it, he wants a turbo charged engine, a better transmission, better suspension... Not so it gets better lap times, but so it crosses Europe in more comfort, at great speed, but knowing that nearly every nut and bolt on the car is new and as good as it can be... His budget is £60-70k.. He set that budget, not me.. He may end up with change, he might not, it all depends on the final spec, but that spec is being nailed down after we have inspected the car, and after we have agreed the project.. After that and the project begins, the spec only changes with mutual consent, not just because someone on a forum has come up with a "cunning plan" or a great idea.

I would love to dedicate enough time to taking a 944 turbo to the same levels as a Singer911, the attention to detail is awesome, I would love to pay that much detail to the stitching used, buy the best, best best, parts regardless of cost, "Hello Fabspeed, can you make an exhaust in Titanium?", it would be easy to spend that kind of money on a 944, and an amazing car would be at the end of it, and you would have to be really careful to not also ruin the car and its character in the process..

Autograph cars often get poked fun at for their 944's... Maybe a decal of a snake down the side is not to everyones taste, it certainly is not mine, but it must be to someones, even if it is just the taste of someone at Autograph.. But it is a good example of why I am now being choosy about what projects we get involved in and what can go wrong when someone is given a completely free run to do what *They* think is cool and why Specialist and customer need to be on the same page from the start.. But it is also another good example of how some money spent can make a car remain unsold and potentially ruin it.

The key to the Singer911 is that they have spent a shed load of money on things that they know will appeal to everyone, and built it from the ground up with a good solid vision.. It is also why not only will they sell them in small numbers, but those that buy them will in the future probably not loose their shirt when they want to sell them again, because everyone knows the Singer is one hell of a car.. You can't say that when the car is a bitsa with lots of peoples advice being thrown into a mixing bowl and the person building it seriously disagrees with many of the parts being used and the advice which is being promoted.

I also like what Magnus Walker does to 911's for approaching similar money out in the states, with almost identical clients and bank balances.. He has good taste, he does good work, but he would not have built the first one if he did not have a clothing brand paying the bills in the background, and allowing him to indulge in his vision.. Luckily, again, his vision is shared by many, importantly by some people who can also afford it, but do not have the skills to build a car... It probably helped a great deal having a film company wanting to make a cool documentary about him and his cars as well )

Anyway.. thats enough for this essay.. You in the market for such a car George?

Jon, firstly thanks for taking the time.
Your reply highlights an unfortunate trend with modified 951's - in that the modified car spec becomes a lottery of components, engineering and tuning. Quite un-German in terms of focus, logic, and management. But thats Customers when they are let loose.
I can imagine the frustration when dealing with such chopping and changing and failing to realise the original project potential
Can fully understand that you opt out of compromised projects
The Legend is a nice idea. Are the white socks included in the CTR Package?[]
As the 951 /968 population decline, the scope for tuning reduces in quantity but maybe increases in quality - time will tell.
Your advice is appreciated, I'm watching a bit of a project here which you, Augment Automotive, Turbo Dynamics, and a couple of others have offered advice on. It should be interesting, ironically I heard titanium flanges mentioned only this evening. The air-con came out of it last week too.[8|]
Good to hear there are Customers with the vision and budget to have a bespoke product developed for them
I'm not in the market unfortunately - this project has me broke but hopefully there will be some good results from it
Keep up the good work
George
944t

 

[tref]

I'm surprised at that kind of reception at Porsche Centre Sussex.. A while ago I went to A Sussex regional meeting and met a couple of their staff from the service side. They asked what I had, and said it was a '44, and a whole conversation followed that they still get them in for work now and again, and usually get the newbies to take them out for a test drive so they can see how good these cars still are. Maybe their parts person that day was a newbie who hadn't had that experience yet!

 

[944Turbo]

Indeed, went into Bournemouth for some 968 parts for the 944 the other day and had a lot of interest and an offer of coffee, despite turning up in a very dirty Audi with my rather boisterous 2 year old son who was attempting to devalue everything in the showroom.
Tony

 

[MRGT]

All I know is that when I had my 944 S, I popped into Porsche Exter, the nice young lady made me a coffee, and I was only picking up my £3.67p touch up paint []

 

[Ex Skyline]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

ORIGINAL: Ex Skyline
Right everyone, listen to this one.....!! I went into Mid Sussex Porsche today to get a....

Pete Pete Pete!

There was your mistake.. You popped into where??!?!? lol

Seriously though, if Stuttgart heard how that chap behaved, they would inform P-Cars-GB that he needs retraining or shown the door.. Unfortunately, some people in some jobs become a bit elitist and you could have gone in saying you had a 1973 911RS and being a relatively new dealership, with lots of new staff, he probably would have not realised the car was worth more than their entire new car stock list they had there and talked down his nose at you..

Think of it this way Pete.. You drive a 944 because you are a man of substance, who knows what he likes and like a fine wine, has chosen a 944 turbo because he has style and finely tuned tastes, and enough driving skill to not need traction control or stability management... The chap you spoke to today is the spotty kid at a newsagents who just laughed at you because you only buy your cigars if they say Romeo and Juliette on the box and made in Cuba.

If you want a price for something, call me, I will not look down my nose at you. Although I have just laughed at you for popping in there!

Ha, Ha!! I only popped in there Jon' because it is next to one of my merchants in Burgess Hill and, I had to wait an hour for one
of the vans to show up with some kit I ordered []. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered mate and, right now I wish I hadn't []!! From memory, JMG don't do original
Carpet sets.....[]!!

 

[Ex Skyline]

Forgot to say, I don't usually go shopping for Porsche parts.....I just pick up the phone and call JMG! Much better results.....[]!!

 

[GlennS]

The only trouble I've ever hand in an OPC is when I caused a panic by attempting to pay for a £1.66 part with a £2 coin. OPC Reading "doesn't do cash", it seems.

My experience is that they have been unfailingly polite, courteous and considerate. The guys in the parts department at Reading have also "gone the extra" mile several times, coming out to the car to help identify the correct part or indeed nipping down to the workshop to check against a car they happened to have in.

Richard in parts at OPC Hatfield has also been a great help in getting bits for my old beastie.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

It does seem you had a one-off experience, Pete. That's why I suggested going to the DP and complaining: he should know that someone who's invested many £000s in just one Porsche walked out offended!

One of the reasons I love the cars is because you drive something that any serious car-nut will appreciate as amongst Porsche's finest. But, without the "image" that non-car people have about the 911.

I think nearly all main dealers will have a soft spot for them, and even the indies who are refusing to work on them will regret it in the long-term!

 

[MarkK]

Leicester must have a soft spot for them,the service manager has got one himself and they all turned up to Rutland and handed out stickers!!!

 

[pauljmcnulty]

ORIGINAL: MarkK

Leicester must have a soft spot for them,the service manager has got one himself and they all turned up to Rutland and handed out stickers!!!

Indeed. And bottles of "Porsche" water!

I drank it, and my personal RMS started leaking on the way home......[][]

Great guys, and I'd go to them first if I don't need to pick a part up myself. They noramally do a good Club discount, and postage

 

[Hairyarse]

ORIGINAL: MarkK

Leicester must have a soft spot for them,the service manager has got one himself and they all turned up to Rutland and handed out stickers!!!

I can't fault Leicester at all. When I first ever went there I expected snobbery and couldn't have been more wrong. I get greeted with offer of a coffee every time - which if it's early Saturday morning and you're still a little jaded from the night before it's very welcome. Then Glenn who does the parts is such a nice, helpful chap - and he's in to Golf's too so we've always spent ages nattering. He sometimes shows me around the workshop too if there's something nice to look at.

(Promise I didn't touch your black turbo Mark! ) []

My experience at OPC Leicester has by far been the best experience of any dealership and any marque, it certainly would entice you to spend your hard-earned on a new model with them for sure

 

[tref]

My experience of Porsche Centre Bournemouth tonight... well let's start with the fact they had kept it open for Dorset region to have an exceedingly interesting and entertaining talk by one of our members, they also put some parts back for me to collect, they had an old 993 in the showroom - not an immaculate car, but, well it certainly made a statement about their feelings for older cars, and I had an interesting conversation with one of their techies about 944 Sunroof seals - and problems they had seen and how they were overcome (and one which as far as I am aware I haven't heard on this forum before and I need to investigate further - it could be useful to some of us!

And of course, the nibbles and coffee etc...

Yes, I could buy bonnet struts £10 cheaper on Fleabay, but I kind of like using original parts when the price difference is negligible. A boot lock gasket, you just can't get cheaper elsewhere (£1.40 - about a fiver on eBay)... Though of course, I really should get into the habit of asking Jon Mitchell first, just in case it is a part for which he has developed an "uprated" part in light of decades of real-world testing that Porsche could never undertake!

Sorry, I have probably digressed a bit on this one!

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: tref

... Though of course, I really should get into the habit of asking Jon Mitchell first, just in case it is a part for which he has developed an "uprated" part in light of decades of real-world testing that Porsche could never undertake!

Sorry, I have probably digressed a bit on this one!

ROFLMAO

You'll soon be able to print your own parts based on real world testing experience. (This is the 944 forum, when you see a thread digressing it is only polite to pick up the batton and run like hell with it).

 

[Ex Skyline]

Well, judging by all your comments to date, we obviously have the most miserable parts manager (or whatever he's called)here in
Sussex, out of all the Porsche centre's [8|]! I saw all the cups, saucers and, full Coffee pots everywhere but, no way was I
offered one. I didn't even get a smile [] or, any kind of friendly greeting in any way, shape or form! The whole short experience
left me feeling very disappointed [>:]. I was only killing a bit of time as well and, just thought I'd see how our local Porsche
franchise would be able to deal with any 944 bits and pieces that I may need in the future. As I have already stated, I wish I
hadn't bothered. The whole experience left me feeling a bit deflated [8|]. I won't go in there again, i'll just pick up the phone
and let Jon' sort me out [8D] []!!

 

[JM1962]

ORIGINAL: Frenchy

Porsche Centre Kendal are spot on, always have a craic, make a coffee if you call in person, if you think about it us lads with the old un's are probably a significant percentage of parts sales, i could have bought a very decent car for the money i have passed over their counter over the years !

+1 for OPC Kendal. Have ordered lots of parts for the various old 944's I've owned over the last 10 years or so and the guys always have a chat and are never less than helpful.