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Are we really the poor relations...?

If you judge whether we are the poor relation or not by the number of posts on the PCGB forum then I would say definitely not. 203 thousand here. No one else comes remotely close!!!
 

ORIGINAL: Andy97

If you judge whether we are the poor relation or not by the number of posts on the PCGB forum then I would say definitely not. 203 thousand here. No one else comes remotely close!!!

Ask that in a field of 911 owners and report back ;).

Saying that, I would go along the lines of other posters here. The 944s are quite an great machine with practicality to boot are are superb value. Sometimes it is not too bad being the 'poor' relation ;).
 

ORIGINAL: Andy97

If you judge whether we are the poor relation or not by the number of posts on the PCGB forum then I would say definitely not. 203 thousand here. No one else comes remotely close!!!

Steady on!

We have 123000 Spyder hits on one thread alone over on the Boxster forum. All in the last 20 months too!!

[:D]
 
Hmmm, I don't see those stats on the front page of the forum that I'm looking at. Booster posts - 57188

ETA. I see now, you are looking at hits not replies. I stand by my comment!
 
[:D][:D][:D]

Posts or hits v number of cars sold - Spyder wins hands down!

Still - as a Boxster, we're the poor relations too - at least the 944 is not a hairdresser's car!
 
Rob, the Boxster is still a current car, give us a break!

Given the number of 944s still on the road then the number of posts is fantastic. I'm sure we are on the same side!

 
Absolutely.

944 forum was a brilliant source of information from a great bunch of guys when I had mine. The banter was always good too!

I loved my 944 which was sadly written off in a motorway traffic jam whilst stationery when a Ford Fiesta seemed to confuse it for an open stretch of tarmac...
 

ORIGINAL: rob.kellock

[:D][:D][:D]

Posts or hits v number of cars sold - Spyder wins hands down!

Still - as a Boxster, we're the poor relations too - at least the 944 is not a hairdresser's car!

There's got to be a hairdresser driving a 944 cab somewhere [:D]
 
I have driven every production Porsche made except a Macan and the new 918 Spyder and have even driven a 917 and 904 and I have owned just about every model they put through production as well. I am not hard up for cash, I have no wife to tell me what car I can or can not own, and you know what? There will always be a 944 turbo in my collection and that car will always have more space in my heart than the others which will come and go.

When the 944 was new it was a cheaper car than a 3.2 Carrera, a little bit like a Boxster today is cheaper than a 991.. But back then, a new 944 was half the price of a three bed house "down south" and the 911 was about the price of a four bed house in a nicer area of town... Today a new boster sells for half the amount a beach hut sells for in Bournemoth, maybe enough to get a small flat somewhere like Grimsby. Even the cost of a new 991 would not be enough to buy a studio flat in Bournemouth, a 991 Turbo maybe, but you would need to have enough money to buy two 991 Turbo's to have enough to buy a 3 bed house round here... Maybe this is more of a statement about house prices, but when it comes down to poor relations, you had to be far further up the food chain cash wise to buy a 944 in 1984 than you have to be to buy even a 991 today...

So, the 944 was the Poor man's Porsche back then? I don't think there was anything poor about someone being able to afford a 944 when they were new.. If anything, the kind of person buying a 944 back when they were new are the kind of people who shop at McLaren or Ferrari in today's market and the kind of person who bought a new 3.2 Carrera in 1984 was the kind of person who today might be buying something extremely exotic that you may attribute to Arab oil billionaires buying today.

That was back then anyway... So nothing cheap about the cars when they were made.. But what about today?

I have some customers who come in that have a project Porsche 944 in need of attention on a budget all the way through to one guy with a 968 who has an open cheque book.. And although it is nice to have a customer willing to spend half way into five digits on his 944 or 968, which does happen from time to time, we also have the majority of customers who will spend the £1k to £2k a year which you need to keep a 944 turbo tip top over a ten year period by having a specialist do all the work. You can get lucky and spend a lot less, especially if you do the work yourself, but lets face it... it costs the same or more to maintain a 944 as it does a Boxster or 996, and a 986 Boxster today is worth less than your typical 944... So again, I would be at pains to say the 944 today is the poor mans Porsche or a Poor relative.

Back in the 1980's what Porsche model was raced at lemans as a production car? a 924CGT and what model had its own factory race series? The 944 Turbo.

All of this reminds me of the 246 Dino. Back in the 1980's and 1990's I lusted after one of those, mainly because of the shape.. But back then, and until very recently, they were considered the poor man's Ferrari, even to the point that because they had no Ferrari badge from the factory, people said, regardless of what it said on the log book, that it was not a real Ferrari... Today though, now that they are worth about the same or more than the average base model Ferrari, all of a sudden they are a Ferrari even in Ferrari circles and if you turn up in one to the breaklfast club at goodwood, owners of Ferrari 355's and 360's will dribble all over a 246 Dino.. Why is that? Value... Like a Rolex on your wrist, or Diamons around your wifes neck, people make judgements about a car's exclusivity based on how much it costs to buy one.

If you want a car to make people think you are a high roller, buy a Roller, but a new one, otherwise people will think you are on route to earn a few quid at a wedding.. But if you want a car on its merits of styling, aerodynamics, road holding, performance or potential performance, then a 944 is a very good tool to own.

I had a 993 RS until 2002 when I sold it.. Lovely car, lovely noise, bashed my head on the cage getting in and out of it all the time, if I had driven it on a european road trip I would have hated it by the time I had got home, but on a track or a country lane, it was awesome.. That is, until the values went through the roof and it became too valuable to enjoy.. and that is the problem, back in 2002 I decided I enjoyed it a lot less than I would enjoy getting the hell away from the middle east where feelings towards a westerner had turned from friend to foe... So it had to go once I was back in the UK... I could have kept it and sold it today for three times what I sold it for back then, but it would have been stored for 12 years with me too scared to drive it.. Thats what the Royalty of Porsche cars gets you, little fun and lots of wow.

Back about 5 years ago I sold my 968 Club Sport. Not because it was worth too much to enjoy, but because it had become too perfect to enjoy, I started holding back and not enjoying her as much as I did when she was rougher around the edges.. Not as much royalty as the 993RS, but still a car with "snoot appeal" ..

912's used to be the laughing stock of the Porsche world.. "Who would buy a 911 with four cylinders?"... they are now a collectors car you rarely see.. Back in 2002 you could buy one in need of an MOT for £1500 or less... Oh but now if you own one, you are a man of substance and class, someone with taste, people now have a romantic image that the 912 owner likes to swoop around alpine roads enjoying the lighter weight and lighter back end.. Back only a few years ago people had an image of a 912 owner as someone who could not afford the two extra cylinders that make a 911.

My feelings.. The 944's are heading up in value, and one of the only things holding them back are the people who on forums like this say "a 944 is not worth that much!" whenever someone advertises one for reasonable money.

I recently sold one of my 930's which needed a respray following being parked near a barn on fire.. I put it on ebay starting at £1 with a buy it now of £30,000.. On pistonheads a number of people started crying "£30k Buy it now!, is JMG Mad????" in the first 24 hours it passed £20k and a week later it ended for £35799... The buy it now automatically was deleted by eBay once it passed the £20k reserve, which I did not realise it would do.. The £30k was my thinking of "What random amount would I end it early for?".. I never expected it to get even £30k, let alone almost £36k.. But it did.. On Pistonheads a number of 930 owners were busy shouting "This is crazy" and "I would sell mine for £40k".. but the proof was in the pudding that more than one person out there was happy to pay £35k plus for a car that I described would need a minimum of £7k spending on it to get it reasonable and more to make it great.. but as a Cat-D car with 17 previous owners, it was never going to be the ultimate 930, which is one of the many reasons I sold it rather than "Do it up"....

But if 930 owners can talk down the values of their own cars and then go quiet when they see what market forces dictate the real value to be, imagine how much you guys talk down the values of your 944's.

The reason the 930 got £36k is because there was no idiots selling one on the open market for less... If you put a 944 turbo on ebay stating at £1, then it will only make as much or less money than one of the same condition for sale as a classified ad somewhere... because of the person selling one as a classified ad.. That is what sets the amount they sell for, you guys do.. Undercutting each other, the people on forums talking down their values and the guy on the Shetland isles who marks down his price because he cant understand why his has not sold (maybe because it involves a small holiday to go view it?), which then causes people on the mainland to not read why the Shetland one has not sold, and decide to drop their price too.

So, Poor mans Porsche? absolutely not.
Any less of a Porsche than any other model? You have to be kidding.
Would they sell for more than they do currently if people would stop talking them down and selling them too cheaply? Absolutely!

Supply and demand is one market force.. But there are a lot of coffee beans in the world, and a lot of furry animals willing to eat the beans and poop them out, but the price of Kopi Luwak coffee beans, also known a Civet beans, can be £3k per kilo and people paid it, even though there is an almost inexhaustable supply of beans and Civet willing to turn it into coffee gold.. The price is set by the people who process it and make a killing doing so, not by supply and demand.. But as long as there is no "native" bringing sacks of the stuff across in hand luggage selling it cheap, the price will be high, no matter how disgusting I think the whole concept is..

Likewise, if some of you selling your 944's actually realise that your cars are not ford fiesta's and will not sell instantly unless it is too cheap for any bargain hunter to resist, and instead set a decent high end price if your car is a high end example and waited for the right person to come along, then the whole market would shoot north just as it has for the air cooled 911's... But in the meantime, too many people sell them too cheap, which then causes people to talk them down as a car, as well as not realising their value.

Eventually people who like them will keep them and people who buy the bargains will run them into the ground and destroy them and the market will dry up, and then, all of a sudden the market will head north... Or maybe the members of forums like this will still say "They are only worth £Xk" and they will still change hands for peanuts.. either way, its daft the way values get talked down and anyone who sells one for a reasonable amount of money gets slagged off..

Anyway, as usual from me, too many words and a rant completed! lol
 
ORIGINAL: Bob

The trouble with yours Peter is that you have spent so much money modifying it that you can't reconcile in your mind to sell it for its true worth. Only a very small handful of people (who probably already have a 944 Turbo) would consider your car, everyone else will be looking for a standard car because they believe the mods will make it less reliable. Every mod that you do is money down the drain and you will never get it back. You would be better off removing them all and selling them separately, that's the only way you'll get anywhere near your money back.

Too many garages are happy to take money off us owners, take ages to do the work, then hand the car back full of parts that actually devalue the car. You need to advertise it properly and not just a half hearted post on here, most of us have seen the months and months of problems you have had and all the time its been in the garage. If you plan to keep it forever that's fine, but if you change cars regularly then it will unfortunately cost a lot of money.

Some words of wisdom there, but also some details I would argue...

If you modify any car, you devalue it and never get the money back when you sell it.. That is a fact and something I do not make any bones about and often tell customers.

Modifying a car has to be a personal thing, where you want to make the car "how you want it" and that is not going to be the same for everyone, so no one will ever appreciate what you have done, too an extent.

If someone out there wants a 944 and then put KW on it, then they will see a car with KW already fitted as £1500 and the rest, saved.. But half the time people want a modified car to be their own making and they want to feel the KW at its best, which is when it is new.. It might be just as good 30,000 miles later, but that to be honest is not good enough, people want that new feeling a warm fuzzy feeling that things are as good as they can be, as well as experiencing the "before and after", that too is a big part of the modified car experience.

Car value needs to be on a car for car basis, and if Pete seriously wants to sell his, and for once I actually felt deep down that he really wanted to sell it, then there are some things, including a decent advert, which would make it happen... But, I have found that Pete is a lovely bloke and his car is a seriously lovely beast to drive.. But every time he says he wants to sell it, I know he will change his mind.. What he really does need to do is enjoy it.

Now the bit I will argue about... There are only two things to my knowledge which has been a trouble for Pete's car...

He had a problem with a persistant battery drain problem, which turned out to be a permanently on glove box lamp and a halfords battery with a slow drain...

He also had the most evil of squeeling brakes, which turned out to be caused by a seized piston in one of the calipers causing every set of brake pads it had to wear into a very slight wedge shape, which made a hell of a racket... We changed about 3 sets of pads for him, each time when it started squeeling, rather than waiting for the wedge shape to form, each time assuming Textar/Pagid group has made another dodgy batch of brake disks like they did about 4 years ago (which were noisey as well)... We even changed the disks once, thinking maybe they surface was too pourous... Each one of these fix'es was a quick change of parts, followed by no squealing, the car staying with us until Pete could next come down, and then it would be fine until eventually "Squeaaaaaaaal" again and a very peeved pete... Eventually once I realised that it could no longer be bad pads or disks (having tried a couple of sets of pagid and mintex) I Stripped it all down and found that with new pads with the pistons all the way back the pistons all worked in unison, but once the pad wore beyond about 1mm, one of the pistons would no longer move further out.. Easy problem to fix, and reasonably unusual, but in the meantime bloody annoying for all concerned.

The only other problem pete had was a knocking noise over bumps and occasional damp in the car.. Which turned out to be a quick find and a quick fix, tailgate and sunroof seals and adjustment.

The car has been with me for months, dropped off with the knocking noise, flat batteries and squealing brakes, all long ago fixed, and to keep it going I take it out for a spin on a regular basis, the car is awesome... But Pete asked me to look after it while he decided what to do with it next, and since then it has been up for sale a couple of times, and he has had a couple of changes of heart as to what direction to go in.

I think Pete will be the first to say we have not been messing him about, we have been storing his car for him, waiting for instructions, which we are fine with because we wanted to make sure his car did not develop any more irritations for him.. So if he wants to leave it with us for months, thats fine... But I am now pretty damn sure the brakes are not going to squeal again! lol

Further modifications to Pete's car? I don't think he needs any.. As it stands it is rapid, nimble, has awesome road manners, is reliable, sweat and smooth... Some extra power is always nice, but it is impressive as it is..

My advice for Pete.. There are a handful of small things I would recommend as precautionary maintenance, maybe some paintwork here and there to make it beautiful, and get it back so he can show it off at the "Hoon in June" and be proud of it over a bacon butty...

Apart from that he needs to use it, enjoy it and most importantly come with me to the Nurburgring with it in the summer so we can blat our 944 turbos around the track, Stay at Eddies place at night, break my association with the Ring and bad health, drink too much beer in the evenings and eat too much steak... Who else is coming? (and no, you can't bring the wife!)
 
Right with you here mate, love my 91 red S2 and also love the fact I can get a bags of clubs in the back and leave the driver in there. Couldn't do this with my W211 E class!
ORIGINAL: Worsey

ORIGINAL: Andy 944

Just checked my V5 ....... yep is says Porsche

Bit late into the fray, but yeah my S2's got a Porsche badge and I certainly didn't put it there.

I wanted a 911 when I first set out to buy a Porsche. I think I had that "got to be a 911" mentality but soon realised my budget would only get me something that needed a bit of work so that got shelved pretty quickly, and despite a colleague trying to talk me into a 968 I always found the 944 more aesthetically pleasing so I bought the best one I could find at the time. I wouldn't change the S2 now I've had it for six months or so. Looks great, very practical (none of my mates can get two sets of clubs in the boot without taking out longer clubs - they find this really impressive[:D]), and my 6 yr old Emma loves going in "Daddy's posh car" even if it means she can't have juice or crisps on the go.

If anything I might swap it for a ragtop and enjoy some summer cruising when Fletcher's old enough to go in the back in a few years but until then I'm going to enjoy the fact that I'm a Porsche owner, regardless of what anyone else says.
 
Jon,
I enjoyed your property / new Porsche / poor relations views.

For sure, the 944 (and also 964 RS) were talked into the ground, for which some of us can be very grateful, knowing that lots of what was being churned out was a load of old drivel and still is.

However, if JMG or some-one developed a 951 in a similar way that Singer have the 911 - very high attention to body & trim area craftsmanship - and say Tuthills who put the same attention into 911 Mechanical areas, and in the process achieve effectively a New 951 with say 450rwhp, what would it be worth....?

(Not what would it cost). It has proper aero / downforce, and assume it can touch a genuine 180mph and lap the 'ring 20 sec quicker than a GTR in the dry.

Has to be worth £-----?

I ask because I think; rarity, appreciation of what a developed 951 is, and the demise of feel in Porsche products, will generate demand for this species.

George
944t








 
I don't think rarity has anything to do with it. The air cooled rear engined cars were no less rare several years ago when many of them were worth 1/4 of what they are now. No values have been talked up by "people of taste" or whatever you want to call it and some very vocal enthusiasts.

A simple example of what I mean, I have always had a soft spot for the Alfa SZ despite thinking it is really ugly from the day I gazed upon it at the Motor show all those years ago. Its also just about the ultimate modern era Alfa and very very rare so you would think they go for mental money. I was surprised recently to see you can still get them for not much more than a 968 CS, they really haven't gone up much at all over the past several years. Much better value than air cooled if you can actually find one to buy.
 
Given the money I`d have another 944T..................

.........but it would have to be one of these................

4a2f706e31472.jpg
 

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

I don't think rarity has anything to do with it. The air cooled rear engined cars were no less rare several years ago when many of them were worth 1/4 of what they are now. No values have been talked up by "people of taste" or whatever you want to call it and some very vocal enthusiasts.

A simple example of what I mean, I have always had a soft spot for the Alfa SZ despite thinking it is really ugly from the day I gazed upon it at the Motor show all those years ago. Its also just about the ultimate modern era Alfa and very very rare so you would think they go for mental money. I was surprised recently to see you can still get them for not much more than a 968 CS, they really haven't gone up much at all over the past several years. Much better value than air cooled if you can actually find one to buy.

We saw one on the Brighton Hoon last year at the classic car show. Like you, I thought it's ugly before, but the more you stand next to one the more you like it, well I did anyway, I'd love one! I just checked and it looks like I saw so 'drawn' to it that I never took a photo!! [&:]
 
Yeah the SZ was a design way ahead of its time. They look tiny now compared to most modern cars, I was at the Motor show when it was introduced and will always remember it for that even though I can recall thinking it looked ugly. The impossible to find headlights and other crazy expensive parts make it a not very tempting proposition as an actual car to use and drive, as a garage queen though its one of the very few modern classics that hasn't gone to mental money here.
 

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