Are we shy?

[paul howells]

Des what a load of crap
stick my cooking engine in a 964 rs,it will be the sweetest porsche about,and more than capable of handling the power,in a very balanced form!!
Nice to see some well set up 964 cars about,being driven with some vigore.
Keep it up.

 

[carreraboy]

Paul presume my last post you felt was crap.......nothing like a bit of lively debate and opinion love it..firstly was great to see you all, fantastic 993RS Guys what a credit to the Marque and fabulous turned out and impressive cars very competitive and great banter......

Yes Paul ABSOLUTELY agree your cooking circa 380BHP lump in a 964RS would be truly awesome this has been done in particular with a 400BHP RUF converted car, think it's been through more hedges and fields than Mr Badger and his family the guy who now owns it confessed it was far too much......HOWEVER WOULD AGREE THE WIDEBODY 3.8 964RS MUCH MORE APPROPRIATE.....don't you think wider track bigger brakes more stable....there are a few 964RS lightweights with ex 993 Cup engines particularly in Holland meet the guys at the Ring from time to time these are knocking out an honest 320BHP would think that ideal on the narrow body 964RS Lightweight...mind you the stock engine as I have been saying can give you nearly this anyway. So yes Paul I would personally be happier with all that extra power in a 3.8 Chassis scared sh*****s as it with just 300BHP...........I think that makes sense to me.

Anyway Paul great that we can debate and again enjoyed Friday....interesting, although had the opportunity to drive others we stayed in our own cars.....

 

[SimonExtreme]

Paul

If you are offering your engine to go into a 964RS, I am your man! I hope you gathered from our conversation that I understand what you have done and really respect it, so I cannot imagine anybody better for you to donate it to[]

I had missed Des's comments and I have to agree with you. The chassis can certainly take significantly more power and it wouldn't disturb its composure. Ultimately, you don't have to use all the power and so long the tuning produces a good spread of torque which doesn't come in with a "bang", you should have a really nice car to drive. In fact, I suspect that with a few alterations, you could vastly improve the drivability by smoothing out the way the power kicks in at just over 4k rpm. For instance, On the left hander test this caused an issue getting to the turn in straight[] Now, where is some wire - I must try that little mod you mentioned[]

 

[carreraboy]

Hello anybody in? Simon Kamikazi.........suppose you would trailer it for perfect flat tarmac...God help you on a public road maybe you have that scare to come it will, then I think you would change your tune very very quickly....Simon why do you think Porsche produced the wide body 3.8 for the much more powerful 3.8RSR? The 993 has a wider platform multi-link suspension etc.....Remind me of the guy strapping a rocket to his back what will happen next...........you have to reach a healthy balance and what the chassis will really handle...

Makes sense in above 3.8.........

 

[paul howells]

Des the 3.8 wide body was made for a differant class,where they could get more grip by a wider wheel base and more importantly bigger tyres for more grip and be able to run the bigger spoilers etc.They increased the bhp to give the car more grunt,to push it through the air,ie drag of the widebody and to be then competative in its class.A narrow body 3.8 would probably be quicker around ie brands indy,but may be not around spa,horses for courses and all that.
I raced a 964 widebody for a season,it would have easily coped with another 200bhp,the cars you are refering to are the ruf turbos etc,which are all or nothing power delivery,great fun in a staright line,of which any one can do,but to drive it competativly around wigly bits, you need the power delivery to be managable, smooth,and responsive,which can be done with a good map man or motec etc
Dont be frightened of it,get some good tyres on it,and beast it.They realy do reward the driver,may be get a racer in your driving seat ,and see what can be done,if you have not already done this.Its amazing what a 964 can do,especialy when you get it out of shape.
But do not expect it to handle well ,if you are on old tyres and a poor set up.A lot of cars feel fine until you explore the limits of it,then the car will either work with you ,or bite you in the ass.You are welcome to come out with me on a track day,or i know some other drivers who regularly explore the limits of there car and driver !

Simon all you need is a cable tie,try it and see.As i said you may loose a couple of horses on the top end,but it should be a little smoother and more torque lower down.It may not work on all cars,as it depends if your car has been remapped etc,if i had thought about it, we could have done it on friday for you .If you ever get the car mapped,make sure you undo this mod,and then try it again after
But do not tell des about this super dooper mod,because he will want more power and smoother delivery when he gets some good boots on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SimonExtreme]

Paul

Thanks but you are wrong about one thing - I can tell Des because he doesn't want more power with smoother delivery. His says his car can't take the extra power. Maybe its because it is LHD[]

Sorry, Des, but I have to disagree with you on the power thing. I didn't feel I could really comment until I had driven the car fast but the car (and I believe myself) could have handled another 30-40bhp on Friday and that was in far from ideal conditions and on road tyres. I know that Paul would have been significantly quicker but I think he was rather enjoying the freedom of no barriers and kitty litter to worry about and was rather liberal with his right foot. If it were dry and I had sticky shoes on, I can see no reason why an engine like Paul's (c.380bhp) wouldn't be fine. After all, people have successfully hillclimbed 964RS's with supercharged, high torque engines.

There is a lot of hype regarding the 964RS, about how it handles and bites you. OK, it is a little more of a handful than my brother's Caterham but not that much more and I think it is more predicatable on the limit than an Elise. The lift off oversteer is less violent for starters and there is more tendency to underteer than I expected. There was one "morning" corner I did at over 80mph which I didn't cross the line and but got well out of shape (looking out the right hand window!!). However, I over corrected and got a bit of a tank slapper on that I couldn't hold. In the Caterham I would have caught it, in the Elise I doubt I would have caught the first bit of snap oversteer.

I haven't managed to find the test report, but somebody told me that the 964RS won the "best handling COTY" in Performance Car magazine in 1992. If its true, I am not suprised. What did suprise me on Friday was the number of 964RS's that you could see were set up wrong by the way they were reacting, pitching etc. Andrew also commented on it and that most of the cars he drove weren't set up at all. The reason why I bought my car was that the suspension was perfect and it set up right. One of the people I had a passenger ride with knew that suspension tiredness was a factor in his car but I am not sure others did. Getting it right makes a huge difference - the car reacts properly and you aren't fighting it. Getting the car set right helps you learn to drive it better as it is so much easier. Then you get to realise how much more power it can take. Now, how much is the Motec, bigger injectors, new exhaust, that sexy US airbox and some sticky tyres. sshhh! Don't tell the misses[]

 

[paulr]

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

Yes Paul ABSOLUTELY agree your cooking circa 380BHP lump in a 964RS would be truly awesome this has been done in particular with a 400BHP RUF converted car, think it's been through more hedges and fields than Mr Badger and his family the guy who now owns it confessed it was far too much......

Give a 964 some extra power and the car turns to crap!!!![]

 

[clubsport]

Simon, you are right on the set up of the cars, watching them head on coming into the morning bend some cars were gone before they even arrived,the looks on some drivers faces were classic and there was quite a lot of over correction before the cars even went off into the distance...the other factor to consider with caterhams is the weight, much lighter even compared to what is supposed to be a light weight Porsche, this makes so much difference on the limit.

Friday was fun, you can obviously drive your car, but a good mix of track days at different circuits will be far more beneficial in getting to know the capabilities of car and driver.
Of all the cars I see at trackdays I would say a 964RS has the most varied performance.....The reason for this I would say is down to soft tyres, set up and obviously driving skill....get those 3 things right and they are as quick as anything this side of a Radical......any of those 3 factors being out an put them way off the pace........all observations, not speculation!

 

[Melv]

".........Now, where is some wire - I must try that little mod you mentioned[] ........."

C'mon guys -you cannot leave it at that!!! []

 

[SimonExtreme]

Totally agree, Clubsport. When I bought my car I drove a reasonable number (both LHD and RHD) and the thing that struck me most was how different they all felt. Some were all over the place but in buying a car that had all new suspension and that was properly set up (corner weighting, tracking, geo etc) I knew it was the thing to be concentrating on.

On reflection, its pretty obvious really. The 964RS is basically a road legal race car and its now 13/14 years old. Suspension is going to be tired on anything other than a very low milage garage queen and even then, seals on struts start to perish and springs settle. And with the car being a "precision" tool, if the suspension is out it really makes the handling difficult and unpredictable. Tired suspension leads to uncontrolled weight transfer under braking, cornering etc while poor geometry gives the car "unusual" handling characteristics.

I would have thought that anybody on original suspension or who hasn't had it set up for more than a couple of years is at a significant disadvantage. Maybe this is why the car has the reputation that Des keeps going on about,

BTW, I take your point about the Caterham but the Elise is lighter as well. The Caterham also has the advantage of the engine not hanging over the rear wheels!

I need to do far more than just one day to truly apreciate what the car is capable of and I certainly hope to get some trackdays in next year. However, other than my bros Caterham, I cannot remember driving a road legal car that feels as much like a race car as the 964RS. It's not a car I will be getting rid of any time soon[]

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: Melv

".........Now, where is some wire - I must try that little mod you mentioned[] ........."

C'mon guys -you cannot leave it at that!!! []

You're right Melv, I can't leave it at that because I got it wrong! You don't need wire, just a cable tie[]

 

[carreraboy]

Simon great post says it all........they are ALL different.they were meant to be...as I have said time and time again Porsche gave you the platform then you got on with it...starting with the detuned 260bhp engine then set up then weight then cage then harnesses etc etc etc....

Incidentally my car NW had been recently set up by Parr garage including new shocks etc.......it certainly dug in on the Big Left Hander Turn.....did'nt even come close to the drain/wall managed one run at 115kph the car woukd not spin! In 9 runs although got out of shape and fishtailed to the cone and a little sideways never lost it........previous year and no Parr garage set-up spun out 9 times out of 10! Testimony to your post.........

 

[carreraboy]

So you disagree with your leader PH then? and agree with moi.......but put that extra massive power in a 3.8RSR 964 and then you have an original 3.8964RSR the daddy and not often mentioned would whip any RS................

 

[clubsport]

ORIGINAL: carreraboy


Incidentally my car NW had been recently set up by Parr garage including new shocks etc.......it certainly dug in on the Big Left Hander Turn.....did'nt even come close to the drain/wall managed one run at 115kph the car woukd not spin! In 9 runs although got out of shape and fishtailed to the cone and a little sideways never lost it........previous year and no Parr garage set-up spun out 9 times out of 10! Testimony to your post.........

That's curious Des, from our viewpoint Rob and myself were unsure whether it was your mother or gran driving[] Of the 964 cars Simon & Lee appeared to be the fastest under control with Matt and Melv perhaps having the most fun!

 

[Melv]

ORIGINAL: clubsport
...........with Matt and Melv perhaps having the most fun!

In one Paul!! How many places dya have the oppurtunuty do find out what does happen when you push it too far!!!

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: Melv

ORIGINAL: clubsport
...........with Matt and Melv perhaps having the most fun!

In one Paul!! How many places dya have the oppurtunuty do find out what does happen when you push it too far!!!

That was one of the highlights. I have only ever spun 2 cars as much as I spun on Friday, both on airfields in total safety but to be able to do it in the RS was a rare privelage and the ideal way to learn about the upper limits of the car.

I think the most impressive was Matt doing his spins with hand out the window waving, in true "drifting style". Or was it your passenger? You were soinning so fast I lost track of which side was which[]

 

[Melv]

ORIGINAL: SimonExtreme
You were spinning so fast I lost track of which side was which[]

The proper side of course, Simon -the LEFT-HAND side....
[][][]

 

[lee fulford]

Clubsport.....I had my serious head on in the morning.........But the afternoons fast runs were just fun fun fun.

As Simon says (No pun intended) how often do you get the chance to find the limit of your car without the danger of impending damage.

I think I need to be let lose longer so that I can hold the limit.........Oh and a Sat Nav wouldn't go amiss.

Any way WHAT HAS THIS THREAD GOT TO DO WITH ITS TITLE?

All roads lead to Fridays events

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: lee fulford
Any way WHAT HAS THIS THREAD GOT TO DO WITH ITS TITLE?

eerrr???? What was the title of the thread?

Anyway, back to being off topic..........[][]

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: Melv

ORIGINAL: SimonExtreme
You were spinning so fast I lost track of which side was which[]

The proper side of course, Simon -the LEFT-HAND side....
[][][]

I think that the 1 thing that Friday proved convincingly is the superiority of RHD over LHD. I expect the value of RH cars to soar and for there to be growing business in converting cars from LHD to RHD plus adding power steering[]