ATP Electronics - any experience?
- Thread starter Monkeythree
- Start date
Monkeythree
New member
Quick update: I spoke to Andy at Promax this morning about an AFM for my S2 and when I asked him where he got them refurbed he told me ATP Electronics!
Monkeythree
New member
No! I asked him and he basically said the same as ATP told me which was that they were restored to original performance and recalibrated with parts being replaced "as necessary" but without actually knowing what was done to each individual unit.
We had a very open and respectful conversation in which I expressed my thoughts about the remanufacturing process and specifically whether or not the wiper track PCB was replaced and in the end I said that if I was going to go down that route I would buy direct from ATP and he was fine with that. He did mention that he had sold a few ATP remanufactured units and that buyers had been very happy with them.
Not sure if it's progress or not but all useful information in piecing together the S2 AFM jigsaw!
We had a very open and respectful conversation in which I expressed my thoughts about the remanufacturing process and specifically whether or not the wiper track PCB was replaced and in the end I said that if I was going to go down that route I would buy direct from ATP and he was fine with that. He did mention that he had sold a few ATP remanufactured units and that buyers had been very happy with them.
Not sure if it's progress or not but all useful information in piecing together the S2 AFM jigsaw!
Neil Haughey
New member
Good detective work guys, I have bookmarked this thread for future reference.
Tom,
I had the same problem with the AFM on my S2 a couple of years ago. Bending the wiper arm only got me so far and there wasn't much track width left to 'land on' so it was replacement unit time for me. I ended up buying a refurbished one from Max Schenker at Frazerpart. I can't remember how much I paid for it but it was cheap in comparison to a new unit. He has them on his website:
http://www.frazerpart.com/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=flow%20air&PN=944--all-models--924S-remanufactured-air-flow-meter%2ehtml#SID=491
.... but the 'S2' and 'Turbo' options are greyed out and I'm not sure why. It would certainly be worth giving him a call though; Max is exceptionally helpful and knows his stuff with the 944's.
However the more I have thought about it the more convinced I am that the future has to be an Air Mass Meter, either with a converter box to make the signals into something acceptable to the existing ECU or a stand-alone dedicated system. However when I last looked (two years ago) there was precious little info around and it all seemed to be very, very expensive. I eMailed a couple of companies in the US who supposedly offered solutions but one of them never replied and one of them seemed much more interested in doing work on BMW's and it felt like too much of a gamble for me. There are people who have DIY'd it but there wasn't enough information around for me to feel confident going down that path. I'm not sure that things have changed much since then but it must be possible, and is the sort of project I'd be very happy to work on if I had the facilities and know-how.
Oh, and for the record, a new AFM on mine didn't make a night-and-day difference; it picked up a little better and runs more smoothly using less juice. And I think the emissions improved slightly. Nothing earth-shattering.
Oli.
ETA: Was the track replaced in my refurbished unit? I don't know; the cover has a 'warranty void if removed' sticker on it and I didn't want to take it off!
I had the same problem with the AFM on my S2 a couple of years ago. Bending the wiper arm only got me so far and there wasn't much track width left to 'land on' so it was replacement unit time for me. I ended up buying a refurbished one from Max Schenker at Frazerpart. I can't remember how much I paid for it but it was cheap in comparison to a new unit. He has them on his website:
http://www.frazerpart.com/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=flow%20air&PN=944--all-models--924S-remanufactured-air-flow-meter%2ehtml#SID=491
.... but the 'S2' and 'Turbo' options are greyed out and I'm not sure why. It would certainly be worth giving him a call though; Max is exceptionally helpful and knows his stuff with the 944's.
However the more I have thought about it the more convinced I am that the future has to be an Air Mass Meter, either with a converter box to make the signals into something acceptable to the existing ECU or a stand-alone dedicated system. However when I last looked (two years ago) there was precious little info around and it all seemed to be very, very expensive. I eMailed a couple of companies in the US who supposedly offered solutions but one of them never replied and one of them seemed much more interested in doing work on BMW's and it felt like too much of a gamble for me. There are people who have DIY'd it but there wasn't enough information around for me to feel confident going down that path. I'm not sure that things have changed much since then but it must be possible, and is the sort of project I'd be very happy to work on if I had the facilities and know-how.
Oh, and for the record, a new AFM on mine didn't make a night-and-day difference; it picked up a little better and runs more smoothly using less juice. And I think the emissions improved slightly. Nothing earth-shattering.
Oli.
ETA: Was the track replaced in my refurbished unit? I don't know; the cover has a 'warranty void if removed' sticker on it and I didn't want to take it off!
blade7
Well-known member
I've been looking at MAF/MAP conversions for 2 or 3 years but although some US users rave about them there's often posts on Rennlist reporting idle or rich running issues. The standalone setups using a new ECU don't seem to use a MAF and seem tricky to set up, especially for cold starting in colder climates.
Paul,
Interesting, thanks. I presume you are referring to S2's and not turbos?
Is there any reason why they don't seem to run that well? The technology is mature in other applications and seems to be retrofitted well to turbos.
Also I always get hazy on technology can I clarify that:
AFM = Air Flow Meter = Standard-fit barn door thing
AMM = Air Mass Meter = hot wire, such as is in the 928
MAF = Mass Air Flow, don't know how it works
MAP = Manifold Air Pressure, as used on some of the more extreme 951 setups
Oli.
Interesting, thanks. I presume you are referring to S2's and not turbos?
Is there any reason why they don't seem to run that well? The technology is mature in other applications and seems to be retrofitted well to turbos.
Also I always get hazy on technology can I clarify that:
AFM = Air Flow Meter = Standard-fit barn door thing
AMM = Air Mass Meter = hot wire, such as is in the 928
MAF = Mass Air Flow, don't know how it works
MAP = Manifold Air Pressure, as used on some of the more extreme 951 setups
Oli.
Monkeythree
New member
At the end of the day, the S2 has a 4 cylinder, 16 valve engine which runs on Bosch sensors. So any of the mappable aftermarket ECU's should have no problem running it with a MAF meter and/or a MAP sensor. The issues with going for an aftermarket ECU as I see them are:
1) Interfacing with the existing engine wiring loom (splice the loom onto a new compatible connector or make up a linking loom between the OE ECU connector and the new ECU??). This is one of those jobs that would take ages to do once as much studying of the wiring diagram would be needed but once you had a template it would be easy to multiply.
2) Mapping it. A base map would be needed to get it running and then it would need several hours in the hands of an experienced tuner on a rolling road to build a suitable map.
3) Cost. ECU + wiring + tuning is going to be close to a grand.
Much as I would like to DIY the above, realistically I think it would be best to find a tuner who would be prepared to do the development work and then sell it as a kit.
1) Interfacing with the existing engine wiring loom (splice the loom onto a new compatible connector or make up a linking loom between the OE ECU connector and the new ECU??). This is one of those jobs that would take ages to do once as much studying of the wiring diagram would be needed but once you had a template it would be easy to multiply.
2) Mapping it. A base map would be needed to get it running and then it would need several hours in the hands of an experienced tuner on a rolling road to build a suitable map.
3) Cost. ECU + wiring + tuning is going to be close to a grand.
Much as I would like to DIY the above, realistically I think it would be best to find a tuner who would be prepared to do the development work and then sell it as a kit.
Tom,
Agreed on all fronts. The snag is that aftermarket tuners haven't grasped the nettle with the S2 as they have with the Turbo, and the market for such kits is dwindling rapidly; no tuner would enter the market now if they have chosen not to for the last 20 years.
The alternative would be to engineer some form of conversion box that takes the signals from the new MAF and turns it into signals that the existing ECU would recognise. It's not as elegant a solution but would be easier - unless there are technical reasons I don't know about preventing it from working. You could get comparable readings using a simple calibration rig comprising a tube with both the old AFM and a new MAF on it, connected to a large blower unit, and you could then produce a transform function from the one to the other. Burn the transform function onto a chip with some inputs and outputs and you'd have your conversion box. Given that generic MAF's are very cheap (much much cheaper than rebuilt AFM's) this could be a good way forward.
Oli.
Agreed on all fronts. The snag is that aftermarket tuners haven't grasped the nettle with the S2 as they have with the Turbo, and the market for such kits is dwindling rapidly; no tuner would enter the market now if they have chosen not to for the last 20 years.
The alternative would be to engineer some form of conversion box that takes the signals from the new MAF and turns it into signals that the existing ECU would recognise. It's not as elegant a solution but would be easier - unless there are technical reasons I don't know about preventing it from working. You could get comparable readings using a simple calibration rig comprising a tube with both the old AFM and a new MAF on it, connected to a large blower unit, and you could then produce a transform function from the one to the other. Burn the transform function onto a chip with some inputs and outputs and you'd have your conversion box. Given that generic MAF's are very cheap (much much cheaper than rebuilt AFM's) this could be a good way forward.
Oli.
PSH
PCGB Member
I haven't read all of this thread so may be on the wrong page but it seems you guys are discussing a possible MAF kit for the S2. I know very little about the S2 but I do recall something about a MAF kit being available for this car in the past...I asked google and came up with SCIVISION MAF KIT Fitting instructions for 944S2 (1989 – 1991)...this was by Promax many years ago, IIRC before Andy's involvement, back in Andrew Sweeterham's days.. the instructions are still online.. http://www.promaxmotorsport.com/944s_maf.pdf
I have no idea how successful this product was or even it's it's still available, perhaps a call to Promax may enlighten one. As far as the Turbo goes I'd say Vitesse all the way, whether you want MAF or Map the car will run perfectly throughout the rev range out of the box, I have used both and John got things right first time on both set ups.
cheers
Pete
I have no idea how successful this product was or even it's it's still available, perhaps a call to Promax may enlighten one. As far as the Turbo goes I'd say Vitesse all the way, whether you want MAF or Map the car will run perfectly throughout the rev range out of the box, I have used both and John got things right first time on both set ups.
cheers
Pete
blade7
Well-known member
blade7 said:
There's an Estonian guy marketing a VEMS setup including a compatible wiring loom for the S2 I think, but I'm not sure if he can incorporate a MAF. I believe he includes a base map to get it running. Perhaps I caught him on a bad day or it was just my naturally abrasive manner
but I succeeded in seriously rubbing him up the wrong way over on the Pelican Parts forum. In any case I think as a minimum installing a lambda sensor in the exhaust and running it through an ECU that is capable of making adjustments based sensor readings is the norm these days. I'm sure someone who knew a lot more about engine management than me could take the ECU, MAF and sensors etc off something like my 05 Audi A4 and knock up a system economically.Pete, Paul,
Pete - yes, that's the sort of thing I was thinking of - and it uses a modification box such as I described. I didn't know that Scivision did things for the S2. The MAF they use (Bosch HFM5) is easily available for around £100 so if the box was available and not stupidly priced then this would be a cheaper way forward than a new AFM. However I guess that's two assumptions that won't be true ... I may give Promax a call just to ask about it.
Paul, hmmmmm, do you have a link to the forum discussion? I'd be curious to know more about that.
Oli.
Pete - yes, that's the sort of thing I was thinking of - and it uses a modification box such as I described. I didn't know that Scivision did things for the S2. The MAF they use (Bosch HFM5) is easily available for around £100 so if the box was available and not stupidly priced then this would be a cheaper way forward than a new AFM. However I guess that's two assumptions that won't be true ... I may give Promax a call just to ask about it.
Paul, hmmmmm, do you have a link to the forum discussion? I'd be curious to know more about that.
Oli.
That's a good idea Rob, although you'd need to work out how to fit both under the bonnet (probably not hard) and have to think a bit more about your data logging. Although that's not hard either, and it does mean you wouldn't need to find some big source of lots of air (for which I had thought about a leaf blower, but suspected it wouldn't supply enough air.)
How good are you with electronics? Would you think about trying this out as a joint project?
Oli.
How good are you with electronics? Would you think about trying this out as a joint project?
Oli.
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