can a car be too cheap???????
- Thread starter colin smith
- Start date
colin smith
PCGB Member
ORIGINAL: edh
I think Dave's point is that for many of these cars now, you will end up spending more than the purchase cost over the next few years keeping it running - unless you are very lucky... (or unless you pay too much for the car... [])
I must agree that any 944 your buy now will cost more to run over a 5 year period than it cost to buy. This may even apply to early boxters and some 911's !!!
Big Dave
New member
Colin.
Im not trying to "diss" your car.
It does look a nice one.
And seems priced correctly.
All im saying, [ From experience] is that these cars can + do cost ££££ to get to a GOOD level of reliable longevity...
Thats not to say, yours isnt, its just the age + milage yours is at, is where the cars can cost ££££££££££...
But factoring in these "unknown" eventualities, it stll makes it a good buy....
The car, if it needs money spending on it could therefore stand the next owner around £6k....
After all, used cars usually need something doing....
OR they could drive it for the next 12 months,spend no money on it, have a great time through the summer + sell it for around the same price as it is now...Then they will no dought get the same questions asked then , asked we are doing now.....
I personally cant see them falling much below its current price....[ But wonders may never cease]....
I just hope somebody buys this car, as its a well priced motor, in the right colour, etc etc etc ....If you can hold out, then i suggest you do so..
Im even tempted myself....[8|][8|][8|]
Im not trying to "diss" your car.
It does look a nice one.
And seems priced correctly.
All im saying, [ From experience] is that these cars can + do cost ££££ to get to a GOOD level of reliable longevity...
Thats not to say, yours isnt, its just the age + milage yours is at, is where the cars can cost ££££££££££...
But factoring in these "unknown" eventualities, it stll makes it a good buy....
The car, if it needs money spending on it could therefore stand the next owner around £6k....
After all, used cars usually need something doing....
OR they could drive it for the next 12 months,spend no money on it, have a great time through the summer + sell it for around the same price as it is now...Then they will no dought get the same questions asked then , asked we are doing now.....
I personally cant see them falling much below its current price....[ But wonders may never cease]....
I just hope somebody buys this car, as its a well priced motor, in the right colour, etc etc etc ....If you can hold out, then i suggest you do so..
Im even tempted myself....[8|][8|][8|]
I thought Fen was saying I was talking trash until someone else decided it was them.
It can't be right that a 944 S2 cabrio is worth so little. Maybe I am wrong, surely its worth £3k as parts?
If it was me and I was looking at only getting £3k for it, I would ebay the roof, ebay the engine, ebay the interior, ebay the gearbox, ebay the brakes and then fill it with soil and plant flowers in it rather than put up with tyre kickers.
With the member who said why I dont use the GT3 as a track day car, when I am on a track day I want to enjoy myself, get the tyres screaming and feel like I am a god of driving without worry. In the GT3 I would be to damn scared that I would over cook it and end up burried in a tyre wall.
The GT3 is a great track day car, but I can't afford to destroy it without crying like a baby.. and yes, that does make it a foolish purchase without purpose except looking pretty and making a cool noise on the occasional sunday morning on country lanes.
In reality, I could do without the Boxster and the GT3 and just have the 944 turbo, but snobbery and vanity are the enemy of my wallet on this one.
It can't be right that a 944 S2 cabrio is worth so little. Maybe I am wrong, surely its worth £3k as parts?
If it was me and I was looking at only getting £3k for it, I would ebay the roof, ebay the engine, ebay the interior, ebay the gearbox, ebay the brakes and then fill it with soil and plant flowers in it rather than put up with tyre kickers.
With the member who said why I dont use the GT3 as a track day car, when I am on a track day I want to enjoy myself, get the tyres screaming and feel like I am a god of driving without worry. In the GT3 I would be to damn scared that I would over cook it and end up burried in a tyre wall.
The GT3 is a great track day car, but I can't afford to destroy it without crying like a baby.. and yes, that does make it a foolish purchase without purpose except looking pretty and making a cool noise on the occasional sunday morning on country lanes.
In reality, I could do without the Boxster and the GT3 and just have the 944 turbo, but snobbery and vanity are the enemy of my wallet on this one.
Neil Haughey
New member
I have had the cover off twice (110K and 155K), replaced the slipper pad and tbh I want to get the cover of again soon before a season of track days next year. Personally I think this check is so important it should be part of a yearly or biyearly checkup. IMHO the wear problem on both cars could be due to using oils that are to thin. I used magnetic for a few years (I know some will say don't use magnetic but Baz Hartech recommends it) and then moved to Mobil 1 motorsport 15w-50 because the car was loosing oil in the hot summers down here (what happened to those). Its worth noting that the 968 I have has 0w-40 showing a lot in its history so my pet theory on this issue is that thin oils run of the top end components to much causing accelerated wear on start up.
At last! Someone else who agrees with what I have been saying for years... It is just basic engineering as you say.
Is an S2 cab worthless if it hasn't had cams and a hood etc.? That's an interesting question. I guess if it is accepted that the work will be necessary for all S2s based on mileage (age being similar for all and therefore constant and ruled out), and that the work is around 3,000 Pounds to complete then a car which has not had the work should be worth that amount less than one which has had the work.
There are some variables of course, for example;
there is value in knowing exactly what work was done, who did it and to what standard and that could lead a buyer to prefer to have it done post purchase, however that is hassle and there is value in buying something already done and hassle free. Personal choice I think; and
it is clearly not an absolute at what point the work will need to be done.
As I described earlier there is an S2 cab for sale locally (relatively speaking) to me that I had some interest in buying, however as I suspect it has not had its cams replaced then I am not interested (at its current price at least, and also as I don't know anyone I'd necessarily trust with the job, nor even know how much it might cost to rectify here). Someone else will probably buy it and might get burned, but I won't:
I got burned when I bought my S2 coupe. The indie I used at the time told me I either authorised new camshafts or he would reassemble the cam cover, push the car outside and let me turn the key to take it away - in other words after he saw the cams he was unwilling to take responsibility for running the engine again. I had bought that car very cheap (just under 4.5 grand in 1999), but it was LHD and had minor cosmetic damage to both front PU corners, and by the time that was fixed plus new cams and plate lift corrected it owed me more than it was worth. In fact I sold it a year later for pretty much what I paid for it and had to replace the clutch as well as the other stuff.
When I bought my S2 cab I paid 7,200 for it at a time when they were typically 9k+. It also needed cams, but as I bought it right I came out OK on that one, albeit I still had the brakes and suspension to overhaul.
My experience of Porsche buying is that you very rarely get a car that has known (or likely) problems cheaply enough that you wouldn't have been better off paying a bit more for one that had already had the maintenance done.
Nope, I thought your post was valuable. In fact I thought it was really interesting.
Having had 5 944s across early/late Turbo and S2 coupe/cab I know pretty well what they are like. I have also looked seriously at buying a Boxster on a number (well, a couple) of occasions as it should be made for me (it's a Porsche, it's open top (which i love) and it's got a 6 cylinder engine (which is my favourite configuration)). I simply can't bring myself to do it however as every time I drive one, or even look at them nowadays, I just dislike them more and more.
I thought it was very interesting to hear the experience of someone who has owned one being very realistic about it. I realise my comments carry less weight than those of a Boxster owner (some people think it's jealousy, for example), but I felt that your experience pretty much backs up my impression of the car from driving it on road and track.
Neil Haughey
New member
I also found the old boxster a bit of a let down. What surprised me though was that it just came across as to much of a compromise. It was to noisy to be nice DD car but when you wringed it round past 6K rpm the sound was nice at first but a little thin and dare I say it, polite. It was nowhere near putting the hairs up on the back of my neck whereas every time I hear an air-cooled 911 it has this sort of effect on me. It was OK and I guess that is the problem.
I have to admit Fen I think we agree on the subject of wanting a torsion bar 911, every time I go out with our region I come back thinking I want one of those but always find a reason/excuse not to go down this path. Perhaps I am just to afraid.
I have to admit Fen I think we agree on the subject of wanting a torsion bar 911, every time I go out with our region I come back thinking I want one of those but always find a reason/excuse not to go down this path. Perhaps I am just to afraid.
Big Dave
New member
Im not saying the cams will need replacing.
As PORSCHE themselves dont see the chain as a service item, when the car is in its warranty period, then the chain,s never gets looked at. Its only now the cars are getting "leggy" that "we" are finding the chain shouldve been a service item...
What seems to happen, is the chain wears / stretches over time/miles , in turn it then wears the cam sprockets unevenly , this if left too long then transpires into brocken teeth from the sprockets...
If the chain was to say be replaced every 60Kmiles or so, it would wear the sprockets evenly + poss never need to replace the cams....
PS.
Ive learnt most of this from Barry Hart from Hartech...And from my own experience of worn cams/chains....
There is a way of measuing the cam sprockets.. For that refur to Hartech.. They have the tools to do so....
I agree with that except that if the chain is worn at all then so will be the sprockets, and if you then replace the chain on the worn sprockets you'll get accelerated wear to both components.
Is it possible that the chain can be replaced early enough that this isn't the case? Clearly it is, as you could replace it after 100 miles and it would have insignificant wear. You might even be able to replace it every 100 miles and get hunders of thousands of miles out of the sprockets, but if that't the case, the key is what figure can you stretch the hundred miles to before you have waited too long? I'd say 60k is closer to the mark than 120k, and probably even 60k is too much.
Is it possible that the chain can be replaced early enough that this isn't the case? Clearly it is, as you could replace it after 100 miles and it would have insignificant wear. You might even be able to replace it every 100 miles and get hunders of thousands of miles out of the sprockets, but if that't the case, the key is what figure can you stretch the hundred miles to before you have waited too long? I'd say 60k is closer to the mark than 120k, and probably even 60k is too much.
J.C944TurboMan
New member
I was comparing My S2 I bought A 120K and had not had any major service done on the cams or Cam chain , which I did at about 123K or so , to Colins S2 Cab that has only covered 97900 so who ever buys the S2 Cab should have 20K or so before they have to consider any major Cam work to be undertaken . I was not been misinforming ! You just wanted to have a pop again Fen , I am happy with my US version of the 944 Turbo , but I do also like the look of the conventional UK look , I bought this Turbo with intention of doing soom Euro Drives in summer once I got it to a good reliable condition , and once you get out of UK with it been LHD should be at home ! Rotating door Fen
J.C944TurboMan
New member
Big Dave your sound mate , this is a personal thing between Fen and my self . Fen sometimes like to try and put folk down and I don't take any of that ! What you have said Dave is all valid and of on personal offence to me what so ever , I now have booked my flight to NZ should not be to hard to track him down ! LOL
Stay cool Big Dave[]
Stay cool Big Dave[
]
You're dead right, Dave. I've had similar advice from Northway...at the last service at 97k (belts, rollers & water pump....ouch!) we could find no evidence of the cam chain ever being replaced, but the sprockets were examined and pronounced OK, so they just did the chain and guide rail. Total parts £71.83, which is not bad.
Casting my mind back to subsistence biking (an early Honda that spent more time in pieces than on the road), isn't it a slack chain that accelerates sprocket wear, and hooked sprocket teeth that will then accelerate chain wear, etc?
If my recollection is correct then, we're right to assume that the Porsche service schedule should be considered in the light of practical experience, and that's why the Forum is so valuable. Timely replacement of chain and tensioner stands a good chance of avoiding the need for camshaft replacement.
I'm just hoping that a maintence/inspection regime will help to control costs yet avoid disasters!
Casting my mind back to subsistence biking (an early Honda that spent more time in pieces than on the road), isn't it a slack chain that accelerates sprocket wear, and hooked sprocket teeth that will then accelerate chain wear, etc?
If my recollection is correct then, we're right to assume that the Porsche service schedule should be considered in the light of practical experience, and that's why the Forum is so valuable. Timely replacement of chain and tensioner stands a good chance of avoiding the need for camshaft replacement.
I'm just hoping that a maintence/inspection regime will help to control costs yet avoid disasters!
No decent bike workshop would replace either chain or sprockets in isolation, constant lubrication systems such as scottoilers will extend chain life but eventually chains stretch due to wear, in my misguided youth I turned the sprockets around so that the chain was driving the other side of the teeth, those teeth soon disapeared.
Neil Haughey
New member
Eventually the sprockets will wear regardless of the vehicles usage pattern, oils used and servicing of the tensioner top pad / chain. I don't believe anyone has established just how long this should be but we do know it can be very low. In my case my 968 needed new cams at 100K miles. Perhaps as has often been mooted the 968 suffers from more sprocket wear because of the variocam. This has always sounded plausible to me BTA there have been S2's with lowish mileage that have needed new cams, one of Fens for example.
One thing I can say for sure is that S2 cams can last for up to 172K miles, as in my own car but remember much of that was motorway miles and I have used oils such as magnetic and 15w-50 which many experts don't like in these motors. It will be interesting to see what the teeth are like when I pop the cover of again for an inspection.
There is a pdf procedure for inspecting 968 cams somewhere on the net, google should find it, the procedure will be more or less identical for S2's.
One thing I can say for sure is that S2 cams can last for up to 172K miles, as in my own car but remember much of that was motorway miles and I have used oils such as magnetic and 15w-50 which many experts don't like in these motors. It will be interesting to see what the teeth are like when I pop the cover of again for an inspection.
There is a pdf procedure for inspecting 968 cams somewhere on the net, google should find it, the procedure will be more or less identical for S2's.
Neil Haughey
New member
Someone can correct me if I am wrong but ISTR that on motorbikes the ratio is 2:1 i.e. you replace the sprocket every second chain?
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