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can someone explain why?

ever88

New member
I'm looking at a change of vehicle for the future and trade in my 944 turbo for an RS2000 Mk2 escort which I have always fancied.

I have owned several mk2 escorts in my time the most prestigeous mark being a 1600SPORT but I am amazed at the prices they demand.

a descent rot free top example car will set you back near 14k while my existing perfect 944 turbo is near half that yet the porsche is a vastly superior car in just about every way. ( the porsche was a super car of the day and the escort was a boy racers common man based car that has a cult following)

it puzzles me then that our cars are not worth anything like the Ford derivative of nearly a decade before.

do you see the prices of 944 turbos ever reaching these dizzy heights when as mentioned in previous posts, you can buy a boxter for less.

that argument is never used against the FORD RS models. i.e. buying an ST focus or new cosworth over an old escort

go figure!
 
They are ultra rare rot free and RS's have always had cult status and immense popularity. Plus people pay those asking prices.

I had a good few when I was younger and indeed was after one when I bought the 944. Now i've owned (and more importantly driven) my current weekend toy there is no way i'd have another RS.

I still love them though and get jealous when I see one!
 
My neighbour has an immaculate Mk1 RS that's worth at least four times as much as my S2, but rarely runs and isn't that great.

Cult following and rarity count for more than reliability and driving pleasure to enough people to ensure the values of old RSs are astronomical.
 
A great and highly interesting question for me. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that an RS2000 was almost within reach of a 'normal' 18 year old in my day ( I.E the days of the RS2000). As you have touched on, normal folk might have had a sporty 1.6 Escort or similar or even an RS2000.
I had friends with both a Lotus Escort ( uber rare eve then ) and a droop snoot Opel 2.7 Chevette HS (what a car & equally rare) which were of the same vein. I however had a more modest but EXTREMELY under rated Nova Sport. We all used to hack them around High Beach to impress the ladies. How cool we thought we were, indeed thinking how lads perform today, I think we actually were quite cool.

The 944 wasn't even in the picture for a 20 year old then unless daddy worked for a bank and I think you harp back to the lads cars of your own youth. I had 2 Capri's and the only reason I dont harp back to them is they are crap. The 944 was never a classic of my day and it is only later ( now) that I appreciate it purely for its class and quality.

What you maybe should ask if you are asking for logic in a car purchase is why now a mature chap who has tasted the ultimate in quality and class wants a souped up Dagenham Dutbin [:D]

Regards Mas
 
The prices are silly !
I have owned at least 8 or 9 MK1 and 2 RS Escorts Mexico and RS2, Great cars but nothing like a 944, nowhere near IMO, i am a forum member on the rallyesportescort site, a good mate knows these things like no one else he was the MK 2 RS2000 Registar.
He has restored (properly) dozens and is very well known in these circles, he is currently building an arched MK1 for a guy, they are up to 30k now and still a way to go.
The latest thing is importing rustfree (well nearly from Oz and the like) and building them to RS Spec.
The last one he restored for himself was stunning yet he could not bear to drive it any distance and promptly sold it.
He is now building a TR7 V8 for himself from a brand new shell....whatever floats your boat ! though it does sound wicked with a tuned V8, i try to get him to do a arched Leyland Rally Car rep but he resisted.
I am rabbiting on now but if i had enough money i would have a MK1 RS2 in the collection, but the 944 is way superior, Paul the aforementioned mate has had a couple of S2's and loves them.
 
The 944 wasn't even in the picture for a 20 year old then unless daddy worked for a bank and I think you harp back to the lads cars of your own youth.

Very true. I was unusually lucky in that between my ages of about 15-22 my dad (in advertising, not banking) had two 944s; an '82 and then an early oval-dash '85, having moved up from an early 323i and then on to a 190 Cosworth. I owned several Mk11 Escorts, as in pay a few £s and replace either at the first accident or the first MOT, whichever came first. I learned that not all cars are the same at a very early age.

If you drove a new 944 after a bad Ford in 1985 you would never have lost the sense that one of them was built to a very different standard. 20 years on that made a huge impact on what car I chose as a weekend toy. Every time I watch the Sweeney or the Professionals I get that craving for a piece of Dagenham's finest on my drive, but in reality would an old Capri or Granada be any use to someone who can't work on cars and has it parked outside in the rain? I might just keep the 944 and sleep more soundly.
 
I want the RS2000 droop nose to fulfil a desire I have had for a long time.

I understand the Q of going to an inferior car perhaps and recognise that I might just be dissapointed but when your heart is set on things often logic is overlooked.

right now I don't have the funds but are quietly saving so that I will perhaps make the plunge in the near future.
 
Let me know when you have funds, i will get Paul to e mail you on the in's and outs of buying, as with 944's big money buys you the best, remember they are rot boxes.

Edited to say check out rallyesportescorts.co.uk
 
Two-door Mark I and II Escorts, especially RS models, have a premium because of their rallying heritage, their eligibility for various historic motorsport classes, and because even an 'cooking' two-door car with a sound shell is highly sought after today as the basis for a rally car.

The 944, while still having race applications, is less competition orientated than the legendary Mark II rally car, and I think the Capri is probably a closer comparison. It is not just the rare Mark I and RS2600 / RS3100 that fetches big money in good nick. A really good 3.0S Mark III is worth a strong five figure sum, and a good 2.8i is worth decent money too. More than what a lot of people are prepared to pay for a 944, even though by any objective measure most factory 944 models are far superior cars to most factory Capris. Mantas are firming up quite nicely now too. I love 'em all, and if I had had a barn in which to store my worn-out Mexicos, RS2000s and Mantas I would be quite well off now.

Competition considerations apart, one reason for the high prices for these surviving Ford and GM cars is that almost all of them have been scrapped and very few are left, so supply and demand equation pushes up the prices. They were far more rot-prone than galvanised Porsches. Most cars reach a point where, having been quite common, suddenly most of them disappear off the roads. I believe the 944 is in that phase now. It has taken a lot longer than most mass produced cars to reach that point because unlike a Ford it is capable of looking half-way decent and being basically drivable even when it has been left outside for 20 years, is pretty much worn out and concealing a lot of rust.

I have said here a few times before that I believe the 944 population is reducing very quickly now because many of them are today in the hands of people who take the view that:

it's a cheap car, I only paid a few grand for it, there's no point spending X thousand getting -
  • a proper sill and wing replacement
  • putting in a new clutch and flywheel
  • rebuilding the transaxle
  • changing the head gasket and having a proper top-end rebuild
  • or even having a total rebush and all new suspension.
(Can you imagine how bad a 25 year old, 150,000 mile Capri would be on original suspension?? Yet there are plenty of 944s out there in that condition, and capable of superficially driving moderately decently. But not for long...)

Fair enough I suppose if that's what someone reckons, it's their property and they can make whetever choices they want - it's a free country. But those are the cars that are getting scrapped now, and will continue to go to the junkyard over the next few years, I predict reducing the population of UK registered cars by 90% compared to the number on the roads a couple of years ago.

A lot of people today say "No point throwing money at a 944 with problems, just scrap it and you can buy a minter for next to nothing". I don't think that's a sustainable argument in the longer term.

The survivors five years from now will be the ones that have had big money spent on them with reputable specialists and restorers, or less cash outlay but a great deal of unpaid labour by the talented few who can genuinely do all the mechanical and bodywork required to proper standards. At that point there won;lt be any good, cheap cars available to buy because no-one who's spent that kind of money on a car because tehy want to keep it for the long term will be interested in selling it for peanuts.

do you see the prices of 944 turbos ever reaching these dizzy heights when as mentioned in previous posts, you can buy a boxter for less.

that argument is never used against the FORD RS models. i.e. buying an ST focus or new cosworth over an old escort

The comparison with the Focus is a good one. Once the 944 population has finished going through the great reduction currently in train, the argument will become meaningless, as it has with Fords (as you point out). I think we are close to the point now where almost all the people who just want a cheap £5k Porsche to smoke around in for a while and then move it on, are going for Boxsters, and the only buyers in the market for 944s will soon be people who want them for the long term and intend to keep them. That will push up prices of good cars that have been properly restored. I don;t see prices going up to the extent that they become money-making propositions - restoring a car like this will always cost more than buying one that has been restored, as it does for almost anything except a tiny elite of classic cars - but up to levels which reflect the underlying quality of the car, because of the basic change in the supply- versus-demand equation.
 
Interesting question. I would guess it's the competition pedigree; those escorts did well in motorsport in their day. Indeed, they were the 'halo' model from a range of cars aimed at the common man. The 944, on the other hand, was the unloved, un-cool model from a very high brow manufacturer who made cars for anything but the common man. Perhaps (historic) halo status counts for more than quality? (And who said quality had any bearing on cost anyway!)

Putting a positive spin on it; it does mean that we (members of this forum) can own much much better cars than we have any right to for the money we pay ...

ORIGINAL: ever88
... the porsche is a vastly superior car in just about every way.  ( the porsche was a super car of the day and the escort was a boy racers common man based car that has a cult following)

it puzzles me then that our cars are not worth anything like the Ford derivative of nearly a decade before.

Not wanting to be rude Paul, but on that basis then why on earth are you looking at changing your 944 for one?


Oli.
 
Jim,

Lovely as it is, i suspect that the seller is an example of the fact that there will always be dreamers in this world ...


Oli.
 
Nice looking car, but where I come from that list of works counts more as an intermediate service rather than a full restoration!

This is one case where I am prepared to admit that the price is massively over-optimistic, not just now but well into the future, mainly because it's an auto, and the three-speed auto 944 just (whisper it) wasn't that good, being both gutless and thirsty.
 
Ref the Escort RS's, so few remaining that have not been mucked around
with, interiors, engine mods etc

Strangely enough, of all the cars I trailer around its the MkIII RS 1600 i's and XR3's that get the most looks!
 
as I said Oili

I agree that these cars are light years in front of the escorts but I just fancy the RS2000 and always have even when I say what I do.

I also like the droop nose firenza also and have considered this a step between the two as the cost up that way also.

no matter but the thread is a different persuasion than general posting on the site and I'm glad it has interested some.

cheers for your thoughts
 

ORIGINAL: Melv

Ref the Escort RS's, so few remaining that have not been mucked around
with, interiors, engine mods etc

Strangely enough, of all the cars I trailer around its the MkIII RS 1600 i's and XR3's that get the most looks!

I loved the XR3's in the mid 80s as a teenager. I occasionally find myself having a nosey about Ebay. Never had one though. Loved the 944 more though.
 
My first car was a 1.1 popular plus with XR3 bits on it! I then got a mk3 XR3i, then a mk4 one then an Orion with an RS turbo engine in it.

This was followed by 8 mk4 RS turbo's a fiesta RS turbo, mk3 XR2i, a turbo'd cabriolet escort (mk 4), Sierra RS Cosworth, mk5 XR3i and one final mk4 RS turbo with serious modifications and a wide body kit! Oh and a decrepit square dash 944 lux somewhere in the middle with everything broken or inoperative on it and an E30 325i!

It's little wonder I can't help but stare at any RS I set my eyes on!

Somehow I found my way back into the 944 scene though and I couldn't be happier. Still look back though...............

Stuart

PS Forgot about the Mercedes 300 CE, oh I'm giving up now before this becomes a book!
 
Nostalgia!

Same with Brit Bikes. Back in 1970 I had a BSA C15 ( If I remember right you could drive up to 250cc without test, in fact I rode without a helmet for while as it wasn't law to start with) and it was a leaky smelly unreliable heap.

I then bought a year old Honda SS125 ( for £185!) with indicators, electric start, no leaks and just as fast.

BSA now going for over £4000, Honda about half that.

I used to sell petrol as a weekend job at a Vauxhall dealer and it was around the time of the Droop Snoot Firenza and Vauxhall Magnum Estate as we had 'em in the showroom. Used to drool over the Magnum!

S.





 
ORIGINAL: steves944

Nostalgia!

Same with Brit Bikes. Back in 1970 I had a BSA C15 ( If I remember right you could drive up to 250cc without test, in fact I rode without a helmet for while as it wasn't law to start with) and it was a leaky smelly unreliable heap.

A few years back I had a mid life crisis and bought a 1968 BSA Spitfire 650c it looked great. I drove it 6 miles to a local garage at 35 mph and the vibration was so bad both my hands and wrists went entirely numb!
They wern't sure how to MOT it so they kicked the rear tyre and rattled the spokes with a screwdriver and gave it a pass.[:(]

I rode out of the garage and went straight over the handlebars..! Turned out the front brake shoe had become detached from the bracket due to rivet-rot! Must have been a record short time for a failure after an MOT.

Ahh nostalgia isn't all its cracked up to be is it.!?
bsa2.jpg

 

ORIGINAL: peanut
They wern't sure how to MOT it so they kicked the rear tyre and rattled the spokes with a screwdriver and gave it a pass.[:(]

I rode out of the garage and went straight over the handlebars..! Turned out the front brake shoe had become detached from the bracket due to rivet-rot! Must have been a record short time for a failure after an MOT.
I love stories like this! In the days of innocence, before bureaucracy went into overdrive and people were trusted to look after their own pieces of machinery. I recall taking a Mk1 Golf I owned (first car) in for an MOT about 20 years ago, and wandering under the car with the tester. He showed me the only tool they were allowed to use to do MOTs (a cross between a hammer and a screwdriver, stamped with the MOT three triangles) and explained that they were essentially 'trying to make sure that the car won't fall apart if a lorry drives into it' (his words.)

I also recall the very useful place that did MOT's by post ... they were closed down many years ago - alas! [:mad:]


Oli.
 

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