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Indeed an interesting thread that I have read before. A couple of points of interest. Firstly a 73 RS replica with HTP FIA papers has got to be worth close to this sort of money? Certainly over 50k?

If I remember correctly HTP (historical tecnical passport) is a document that means that the FIA consider that the car is of the correct technical specification for the model /type, and therefore eligible for its sporting events. However, the FIA also does a HC (heritage certificate) that confirms that the FIA believe the car to be genuine and original. I think these are not given for rebodied cars (although I'm not sure). I'm also not sure if competing 73 RSs tend to come with HC as well as HTP papers (possibly not). But it is an interesting aside if the car was ever to see the race track - which would be a good use for it in my eyes.
 
Which is why this is an interesting topic. If you want to buy a period race car (or even road car), when does a car lose its identity? the asnwer to that is not straight forward.

I think the starting point is the value of a known good exact replica (which I assume is the worst this can be), then add on what you believe it has in real provenance.

Back in the day when the 73 RSs were raced, I think reshelling was a common practice. I think its only recently that cup cars are not allowed to be reshelled (can anyone confirm).
 
I think you are missing the point a bit.

It doesn't have any provenance. It was a 73T sprtomatic car thats shell was used to rebuild the '1316' 73RS and try and stamp it as that and pass it off as that. If anything its a fake not a replica.

The only provenance this has is bad provenance. Two poor buggers have already been fooled into thinking this was the actual 1316 RS and have probably lost heavily because of that.

If the shell of a car is the body and the engine is the heart, then this is a 73T with 73RS bits added. Its in no way a real 73RS.
 
The best provenance I can see, is that if you own the car you may get some claim of subsequent film and book royalties of the story? [:D]
 
I think it is very difficult when dealing with such cars to be able to draw a line. Seems to me that this particular car appears to have very little of the original car left in it. If at all. I'd guess that if it had just been "reshelled" and all the donor cars parts had been transfered, there would be far less arguement over the cars provenance.
 
Laurence, not everyone reads the forums,,,fortunately most people carry out some form of due diligence for a purchase of this ammount,,,but it would only take one punter to think they had got a relative bargain.


Edit to say, maybe it is back up for sale as someone bought it auction,,,then read the story???? [:(]
 
H your not far off on htp and HC etc,you can get a htp on any car that is built to the correct spec of a period race car ,at the moment,some races accept these types of cars and some not.
A HC doc is only nessacery if some one needs some sort of other proof the car is indeed original.But to get a HC on the car you dont just need a car with correct numbers ,you also need a lot of factual evidence,such as sales repeipts,repair invoices,100% trace of ownership and provenance etc,there for you dont really need a HC!!A correct car does not mean it has to have matching eng& box numbers.The id of all race cars is the chassis number and with porsche a tie up with the production number.
A HC can be put on a correctly done period reshell,no problem.There are a lot of car out there reshelled,thats what goes on in the racing world.
The only way you can change a shell lagit is through porsche and restamping of said new shell,and attached production number,and now adays damaged shells crushed.Sadly in days gone by, the original shells were not scrapped but eveuntually repaired and back on the circuit with the same number as the reshell that the factory stamped.
You can still reshell a cup car and the same procedure,you are supposed to exchange the shell for crushing.
A factory car is only one that leaves the factory with a chassis number and production number.
There is nothing wrong with a period reshell,the problem comes when people make this happen in later years for ill gain,and plenty of it going on!! Buyer beware.
A couple of examples for you,i was at a race at the oldtimer GP at the ring,5 x 906 cars racing ,three had the same chassis number and all had fia papers.
There is a rhd 993GT2 in australia with the same number as a certain reshelled gt2 here,the damaged shell got worked on at Porsche Reading by the trainers in the bodyshop,when repaired, was supposed to be crushed, the shell was sold,it could only be sold for racing purposes or export,i missed it by one day.Wait untill that car turns back up in the uk!!

The 73 rs what ever, would make a good period racer,it will cost you more that what its for sale at to build one from scratch if its got all the right parts,so may be not a bad buy,The engine would ideally need to be the correct type and not just a 2.7!
Its what makes the difference of a true replica or a sort of looky like thing that would not get any papers,a good period racer with fia papers will cost you anything from 70 to 200k to replicate ,then replica is not the right word as they are then true period spec race cars!
 
Interesting thread. I think, the future for rare 911s will be like the 906s mentioned above. So, one more reason for keeping every little bit that proves the provenance. Race history and / or provenance seem to be the factors for future value. Although a replica or a rebuilt / reshelled car or whatever you want to call it for sure will be the same fun on track or just driving it.

A big premium will have to be paid for the originals, if collectors don´t change. There must be something special about the "real things".

The extreme is to be seen when you check the market situation for Mercedes SSK and SSKL. I think there are way more - of course original - cars out there than the factory ever built.

Does anybody know about a potential first "Pesto" 964 RS?


Rgds,

Hacki
 

ORIGINAL: jason

I think you are missing the point a bit.

It doesn't have any provenance. It was a 73T sprtomatic car thats shell was used to rebuild the '1316' 73RS and try and stamp it as that and pass it off as that. If anything its a fake not a replica.

The only provenance this has is bad provenance. Two poor buggers have already been fooled into thinking this was the actual 1316 RS and have probably lost heavily because of that.

If the shell of a car is the body and the engine is the heart, then this is a 73T with 73RS bits added. Its in no way a real 73RS.
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Jason, it may well not have any provenance (you seem to understand the details more than me), which would leave its value as a replica (assuming the correct parts are on the car). As Paul states below, that still potentially leaves it as a valuable car. Albeit not worth the same as a "real" RS. I'm not sure I can quite differentiate between a fake and a replica, unless it is just intent. I.e. a replica is built with the intention of imitating the real thing, but not hiding the fact, and a fake is a replica passed off as an original ? Either way, on the forums it seems this car is being treated (perhaps correctly) as a fake, but I think that its value should be considered as a replica (again assuming correct original parts on the car). I would assume that the specialist involved in the case do believe that from a technical perspective the car is correct, even if its authenticity as an original is questionable.

Of course now its splatter across the internet the car is tainted, so many people will run a mile as a result, that means that if someone comes along looking for a replica to race, they might get a good deal (although they would clearly need to do due dilegence on the spec first.
 

ORIGINAL: paul howells

H your not far off on htp and HC etc,you can get a htp on any car that is built to the correct spec of a period race car ,at the moment,some races accept these types of cars and some not.
A HC doc is only nessacery if some one needs some sort of other proof the car is indeed original.But to get a HC on the car you dont just need a car with correct numbers ,you also need a lot of factual evidence,such as sales repeipts,repair invoices,100% trace of ownership and provenance etc,there for you dont really need a HC!!A correct car does not mean it has to have matching eng& box numbers.The id of all race cars is the chassis number and with porsche a tie up with the production number.
A HC can be put on a correctly done period reshell,no problem.There are a lot of car out there reshelled,thats what goes on in the racing world.
The only way you can change a shell lagit is through porsche and restamping of said new shell,and attached production number,and now adays damaged shells crushed.Sadly in days gone by, the original shells were not scrapped but eveuntually repaired and back on the circuit with the same number as the reshell that the factory stamped.
You can still reshell a cup car and the same procedure,you are supposed to exchange the shell for crushing.
A factory car is only one that leaves the factory with a chassis number and production number.
There is nothing wrong with a period reshell,the problem comes when people make this happen in later years for ill gain,and plenty of it going on!! Buyer beware.
A couple of examples for you,i was at a race at the oldtimer GP at the ring,5 x 906 cars racing ,three had the same chassis number and all had fia papers.
There is a rhd 993GT2 in australia with the same number as a certain reshelled gt2 here,the damaged shell got worked on at Porsche Reading by the trainers in the bodyshop,when repaired, was supposed to be crushed, the shell was sold,it could only be sold for racing purposes or export,i missed it by one day.Wait untill that car turns back up in the uk!!

The 73 rs what ever, would make a good period racer,it will cost you more that what its for sale at to build one from scratch if its got all the right parts,so may be not a bad buy,The engine would ideally need to be the correct type and not just a 2.7!
Its what makes the difference of a true replica or a sort of looky like thing that would not get any papers,a good period racer with fia papers will cost you anything from 70 to 200k to replicate ,then replica is not the right word as they are then true period spec race cars!
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Paul, many thanks for clearing that up. Now you mention it, it does of course stand to reason that the FIA do not know each and every marque in enough detail to be able to be experts so must just certify the existing documentation for a car for HC papers. It is interesting to hear that you can get HC on a reshelled car, albeit the origins of the reshell need to be understood.

I was vaguely aware that some races only accept HC papers, and not just HTP, but I think these are only the really high-end events? I know for example that some of the events at the Goodwood revival takes cars on HTP papers, not HC, and I guess most spectators wouldnt know the difference. (Heck I sure dont from watching!).

The examples you cite are fascinating! 3 cars with same chassis numbers?! It seems bizzare, I assume their history is all intertwined.

Interesting to hear cup cars today are reshelled and old shells crushed, I guess its quite an exercise to ensure the old the shell gets crushed, and you can see how it might lead to the odd one slipping the net. The 993 GT2 is a great story out there! [:)]

As stated above I think these things are interesting to understand as I kind of assume our cars are headed in the same direction, in that interest in 90s race cars will increase over time, and origins will become more important. Its what makes these stories so fascinating.

Paul - fascinating insight as ever - thanks.
 
Just to second what was being said by Paul about this thing being rife... I was fortunate enough to stroll thru the paddock at the Monterey Historics last year (which was a Porsche festival with some 50 historic Porsches there) with a VERY famous Porsche expert who will remain nameless.
I'd been looking seriously about the possibility of purchasing a 962 but they all seem to have such dodgy stories that the chances of buying something that's ever seen the inside of Weissach seems slim... I mentioned this to him and asked what percentage of the cars at Monterey weren't what they were pretending to be, offering a guess at 10%.

Once he'd choked back the tears of laughter he admitted it was nearer 50%!
 
Rick,

a 962 won´t make you happy, I guess. And, yes, those ones on the "market" have to say the least questionable stories. The only chance - I was told by another nameless real expert - is to buy one right from the track after a race where it´s proved it runs great and is complete - and safe.

More VIN-No. stuff:
There´s a new book for real 917 anoraks by Walter Näher, "Porsche 917" (Edition Porsche Museum), which lists every detail of these great cars. Guess, what the factory used to do? They renumbered the frames (917 no shell, but frame) just as they wanted to. So much about provenance.....

For our cars (964 Cup and RS, the poor man´s 917) it´s the right time to make sure we know the correct data. In another ten years it will be way more difficult.


Rgds,

Hacki
 
....and Hacki's reply is a good time for me to post this picture.

When I went to see Wolfgang Destree in September we went through all his race pics since the 60's. He has raced original 73RSRs, 74RSRS etc etc and his friend Bernd Becker raced 917s and 917/10s and still races in historics with David Piper etc.

Wolfgang showed us this picture of them transporting a 917 frame....the way it was done in the early 70s....classic!!!

IMG_0769.jpg
 
H the HC can only be given on proper reshells ie in period and by the factory.All fia paperwork generally gets sent to a fia advisor/expert,generally Jurgen Barth for porsche.
The 906 cars concerned all had ex factory chassis and 2 of them looked and were totaly original.Most 917 have wrong numbers ,no numbers.The trick is not to get to hung up on numbers but know you truly have a correct ex factory car,then who cares what the number is!!
962 tubs were not just produced by the factory,i know of at least 3 other manufactures of race tubs for 956 and 62.Fabcar in the usa were allowed to make them under licenece of the factory.I know of a gen fabcar tub if you are interested,we had it on the road at one time,great drive 180 down the dual carrigeway!,and still more to go.
The problem is there is experts who are scary as they do not know enough detail and believe most of what they read and rewrite!and end up costing some people a lot of money.The rs is a example.
If you have a good/rare car,you should be protective of your production number and chassis number.One of the main reasons i opted out of the club data base for the 993rs register.The problem today is that you have to prove you have the original if some one challenges it or clones it.
Great photo jason,i saw a rusting 906 chassis in a garden in austria once,no numbers and spare from the factory,they were then left to put the number on of the original chassis when repaired,hence you get so many same number chassis etc
My good friend Ernest ex sauber for 15 years,would restamp chassis and engine numbers in the back of the race trucks,to satify customs and race docs etc.still goes on today.
I nearly bought a 550 once,body from three different cars and the chassis number plate mig welded on to the chassis.The car just did not look or feel corrcet,real deep investigation was needed,no explanation from the owner on how they had mig welders in the mid 50,s!All the ancillary parts had been remade,pedal box,fuel tank etc,nothing there to tie up with the so called original chassis.
At least us enthusiasts are keeping some records for the future [;)],even though we are being accussed of beards etc.
 
ORIGINAL: paul howells

Most 917 have wrong numbers ,no numbers.The trick is not to get to hung up on numbers but know you truly have a correct ex factory car,then who cares what the number is!!
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You will like the Walter Näher book mentioned above...[:D]
Highly recommended, have your anorak ready.
 
ORIGINAL: DSCBoy

Just to second what was being said by Paul about this thing being rife... I was fortunate enough to stroll thru the paddock at the Monterey Historics last year (which was a Porsche festival with some 50 historic Porsches there) with a VERY famous Porsche expert who will remain nameless.
I'd been looking seriously about the possibility of purchasing a 962 but they all seem to have such dodgy stories that the chances of buying something that's ever seen the inside of Weissach seems slim... I mentioned this to him and asked what percentage of the cars at Monterey weren't what they were pretending to be, offering a guess at 10%.

Once he'd choked back the tears of laughter he admitted it was nearer 50%!
Click to expand...

Was that not a kettle?
 
ORIGINAL: carreraboy

ORIGINAL: DSCBoy

Just to second what was being said by Paul about this thing being rife... I was fortunate enough to stroll thru the paddock at the Monterey Historics last year (which was a Porsche festival with some 50 historic Porsches there) with a VERY famous Porsche expert who will remain nameless.
I'd been looking seriously about the possibility of purchasing a 962 but they all seem to have such dodgy stories that the chances of buying something that's ever seen the inside of Weissach seems slim... I mentioned this to him and asked what percentage of the cars at Monterey weren't what they were pretending to be, offering a guess at 10%.

Once he'd choked back the tears of laughter he admitted it was nearer 50%!
Click to expand...

Was that not a kettle?
Click to expand...

[:D][:D]

P.S.: I must admit, that´s an intimidating kettle. Two laps on the pax "seat" showed me that I know nothing about driving fast.
 
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