Cheap or What or What What?

[Hacki]

ORIGINAL: RSR

Some really good debate on here. The car that started the thread would make a good buy for someone as the price doesn't seem far off if it's correct spec, regardless of provenance.

I'd like to add to the general debate around the re-shelling thing with race cars and provenance, etc. I'm really in to the GT2 race cars and have looked into all sorts of other cars to buy another one. I found all sorts going on and wondered what general views were. I won't mention specific cars on here as in some cases I found duplicate cars that other people owned and thought were the only one. Anyway this is one scenario that I still can't decide on whether to buy the car, but it echo's what Paul Howells has said about proving it's a real car and proof of history and ignore the number.

I found a GT2 race car for sale with good history, apparently Le Mans 24 hours etc, etc. I flew off to inspect the car knowing that the chassis number of the car was exactly the same as another car belonging to someone I know. I was intrigued nontheless, as this other car could be the real one. I met the owner, current FIA GT racing driver who raced it in period, and inspected the car. For sure it was a real factory GT2. The shell number was correct for a GT2, all the right parts, seam welding, etc. Spares package included body panels for it's in period livery. Cage included FIA inspection tags. Owner had sales invoice from original owning period race team and loads of photo's and stuff you'd expect for a real car. Trouble was the owner of the same chassis numbered car I knew had similar supporting material too. I checked both cars shell numbers as a match for the chassis number with Porsche and the one I was looking at was not correct for the chassis number. However they confirmed it's shell number was a GT2 shell they supplied. I got the phone number for the original team owner to ask him how there were 2 cars with the same chassis number sold by him. Luckily he spoke perfect english and after skirting around the issue he was polite enough to offer an answer after I half expected him to just hang up. Basically he bought another body shell from the factory, and parts, and built another car. Used one of them to do a lot of the races in the US and the other one stayed in europe. This information is supported by the fact that only one of the cars has the extra IMSA bars welded in on the roll cage expectd for US. In theory the car I looked at is no different in concept to the Roock cars which Roock built to their own spec on bare factory shells and achieved great success with. Also it became clear that the car I looked at, although not the original car supplied with that chassis number, is a real GT2 with real race history. Not Le Mans, but Daytona 24hrs and Sebring 12hrs, etc.

I still can't decide whether to buy it? Would anyone else?

I know a similar story (if it´s not the same). And, yes, if I were serioudsly interested in a real 993 GT 2 with race history, I would buy it. The case that you describe is so close to the one I know. Both cars are real race cars, have proven history, some development has been done by the team, there was some factory support, everything has been documented.... what you get is the real car, as real as it can be. Spare parts are absolutely contemporary parts, all the extra bodywork (AFAIK the teams copied factory parts to avoid the cost) is contemporary team stuff, there are papers, pictures, magazines and old lists, you can ask the mechanics having worked on it, you can ask the team owner (in your case, too) about it, that´s more than one can exspect. The teams built and worked on these cars (you also mentioned Roock), so every car built and raced by these teams to me are original.

They just played with numbers, and the biggest player with chassis numbers was the factory itself, at least in former times.

As long as the FULL story is truly documented, it just shows that you get a real piece of its time.

Also one of the first 50 Cup cars has been reshelled, Harald Becker crashed it very early in the season. I have no clue, how the story went on. A clone, crushed, renumbered?

Interesting thread,

rgds,

Hacki

 

[paul howells]

Hi Paul etc
As you know i was well aware of the 2 number cars,if its a gt2 with a prod number to say so,its a gt2! Go for it.Your car,i checked the number,but before i read any info or looked at any numbers,you look at the car and let the car tell the story first.I got very excited when i inspected your car,the best factory shell i had ever seen and sold it to cheap[]
The rook car i had,again very original factory shell,no factory chassis number,lots of stories,a few war wounds but none the less a great car to be.Rook Chassis numbers got swapped around,but rarely do production numbers unless its for ill gain or a very genuine reason.
As said before the factory had a lot to do with this,but dont forget weisach is a different mind set to the factory and they are racers at heart who dont care much about numbers even today.
I was in a very fortunate position to have 3 x gt2 sat in my garage,the rook car,the rhd gt2 racer and a stunning original rhd street version,of which i made many comparisons with each other and detail etc,which will prove useful in time to come.
The only tampering i have ever seen so far,was when the factory stamped the prod number by hand and got one or 2 digits wrong,they put a X through them and stamped PA and the correct 2 digits,PA stands for Per amendment,i have seen 3 cars like this,one 964rsr ,the Hakinen Montecarlo winning 964 cup and a 993 cup.
Looked at 2 gt2 engines to buy,both had no numbers apart from FR1 and FR2,not difficult to guess where they came from,but a lot of the racers bought the parts and built there own engines,usually because its cheaper and also to try and eek a bit more illegal power out of them.
If you are buying a ex racer,dont expect it to be running gear matching numbers,if it is great,but closely inspect with great scepticism of the numbers,The value is not all in the numbers.If you are buying a garage queen low miles show/collector car,the numbers are important and add/create the price.Such as my gt2 street car was/is.
All good fun!

 

[Damen]

Paul

Don't do it.

In fact, I'm surprised you're even asking the question. The reality is that there will always be questions asked about the car and it's history and accordingly it'll always be priced to match the question being asked (and you'll always have the hassle in explaining or attempting to explain what it is or is trying to be).

Just my view.

Damen

 

[vic cohen]

imo this thread really valuable stuff, from the looney, spot the 1 genuine part, 'Pesto' car............through some very interetsting debate .......................just what this forum needs .

FWIW having experienced RSR s depth of knowledge in inspecting cars on a productive buying trip to Bremen once and more recently in discussion with P H on some exotic stuff from the '70s where his repertoire is legend, for my two penneth i always believed the inetgrity of the car was in the shell , includes production and chassis number matching.................as described some research often needed and unbelievebly 'big' names nothing to rely on ................THE HISTORY MUST BEAR OUT THE FACTS ............my 3 0 rs in Black [ mostly] had a sister in red in the South of France with a very well famed Rallye and race company of famous Freres.,chassis number identical.....................both had letters from Juergen Barth .....................i certainly sold mine as the original , the red one seems to have evaporated .That was before they were changing hands at the levels they are today ...........the fakes are big business today...............................a pertinent question PH asked recently why would some one do a nut and bolt restoration of a 'reference' car and loose all the history ??
Never be too proud to ask and dig deep if ur paying !!!!!!!

 

[DSCBoy]

This is interesting because I'm in completely the other camp to Damen,

With the provenance you have on the car, having spoken to team boss, you can clearly state which car did which race etc, this car has real value. I think it should and will trade at a discount to the one that was bolted together in Weissach but it's still very much the real McCoy in my book, just a slightly different McCoy... and amount of discount is debatable...

More than anything it would be a HUGE amount of fun, it's going to be eligible for the right events as long as you can document its having been where it was supposed to be originally. But I'd be taping an interview with the team boss for posterity etc...

As for the 73 RS at the top of the thread, I doubt it has a single part in relation to the original car, but if you buy as a good replica BUT with eligibility that you don't normally have with a replica then I'm not sure you can go far wrong at the original auction price.

Cheers

Rick

 

[vic cohen]

Surely summed up as u get what u pay for ?....................HOWEVER its very important to know what ur getting !!!!!! Not always the same thing and getting harder ..................

 

[jason]

Wondered when you'd show your face in this thread Vic []

 

[vic cohen]

Cheeky young B ...... been trying to earn a crust to pay for a decent car .................at least Cuppioe shud be running well for Oulton Park in March ,hoping not to spend all day skulking around in garage like last year !

 

[jason]

I just meant this is the kind of stuff I know you love.

Vic Cohen P.I.

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Personally I think Paul H has it about right. If it's a race car then the chassis numbers are less important than the proved provenance of race history in this particular case. Especially as the shell is already a confirmed GT2 shell. It will likely be know for what it did than what it is . I don't see a problem with a GT2 made by Xor Y race team. This has been done for many years Kremer 935 anyone ! The one problem i do have is if the car is registered for road use. Porsche never issued 2 identical vin's . Whichever way you look at that part of things it don't seem right. Not sure what the answer to that is.