Jamie...Your not alone...
Drilled Discs - 3.2
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Jamie...Your not alone...
ClubSport 911
New member
GOOD NEWS.!!
One of the USA Club Sport owners has sent me some pictures of his latest toys... Drilled Discs for his car, front and rear ! Furthermore, as he tracks the car, then I think we're going to get some "live and direct" experience from him.
If you want to know more about the experiences, then by all means drop me a mail
Piccies below..
One of the USA Club Sport owners has sent me some pictures of his latest toys... Drilled Discs for his car, front and rear ! Furthermore, as he tracks the car, then I think we're going to get some "live and direct" experience from him.
If you want to know more about the experiences, then by all means drop me a mail
Piccies below..
plhorner
Moderator
Steve,
Here goes, I have drill discs fitted to my 3.2 (front and rear) and have had of the last 4 years ! Unfortunately were fitted when I bought the car so can't really provide you with a constructive comparison. Suffice to say they have done 20k on the car since I bought it and 3 track days. I've not suffered any problems with warping or cracking..... touch wood..... ! By the look of them, I think the holes are cast in rather than drilled, I don't have a reciept for them so have no idea exactly what make they are.
Here goes, I have drill discs fitted to my 3.2 (front and rear) and have had of the last 4 years ! Unfortunately were fitted when I bought the car so can't really provide you with a constructive comparison. Suffice to say they have done 20k on the car since I bought it and 3 track days. I've not suffered any problems with warping or cracking..... touch wood..... ! By the look of them, I think the holes are cast in rather than drilled, I don't have a reciept for them so have no idea exactly what make they are.
Guest
New member
Where did we get to on this? I need new rear discs!
Despite the fact that I have always preached the "don't waste your cash on drilled discs" line, I do have an open mind.
We found today, that I have a collapsed rear wheel bearing (LHS). There is enough play for the pads to be pushed back in the caliper creating a very soft pedal (albeit one that will pump up). I thought I just needed to bleed the brakes (again). Surprisingly I never heard the bearing rumbling. This worries me, as I have always heard worn out wheel bearings in the past. Losing my hearing in my old age....
Not hearing anything could have something to do with the fact my exhaust is blowing - specifically it blew a piece of gasket!
ciao,
Richard
Despite the fact that I have always preached the "don't waste your cash on drilled discs" line, I do have an open mind.
We found today, that I have a collapsed rear wheel bearing (LHS). There is enough play for the pads to be pushed back in the caliper creating a very soft pedal (albeit one that will pump up). I thought I just needed to bleed the brakes (again). Surprisingly I never heard the bearing rumbling. This worries me, as I have always heard worn out wheel bearings in the past. Losing my hearing in my old age....
Not hearing anything could have something to do with the fact my exhaust is blowing - specifically it blew a piece of gasket!
ciao,
Richard
Sounds like the old shed is starting to fall apart on you Richard ! Time for an upgrade ?[
]
]
Guest
New member
Well I would be the first to admit that the "old shed" does take a bit of a hammering, but it gets maintained with little thought to the expense - and I have the folder full of bills to prove it []
I can't see an upgrade in the near future as I am more of a tinkerer and upgrader than a replacer. I like something that does more than the sum of its parts. I like the "wolf in sheeps clothing" idea, although this is in the context of other Porsches as a red 3.2 is hardly a sheep to the general public. I love taking scalps of supposedly faster cars on the track.
I have a current program of upgrades under way. The much delayed installation of race seats will be soon completed - one is now in the car. I have the parts for further detail brake mods. A suspension rebuild and upgrade is planned and relevant parts identified. Further weight reductions are also planned. Cup mirrors will soon be painted and installed and maybe a ducktail (still undecided on this). When all completed, it should be a very tasty little car (not that it isn't already).
Richard
]I can't see an upgrade in the near future as I am more of a tinkerer and upgrader than a replacer. I like something that does more than the sum of its parts. I like the "wolf in sheeps clothing" idea, although this is in the context of other Porsches as a red 3.2 is hardly a sheep to the general public. I love taking scalps of supposedly faster cars on the track.
I have a current program of upgrades under way. The much delayed installation of race seats will be soon completed - one is now in the car. I have the parts for further detail brake mods. A suspension rebuild and upgrade is planned and relevant parts identified. Further weight reductions are also planned. Cup mirrors will soon be painted and installed and maybe a ducktail (still undecided on this). When all completed, it should be a very tasty little car (not that it isn't already).
Richard
Just pulling your leg Richard !
One topic that I'm sure has been covered before is what wheel tyre combination will fit under standard narrow body 3.2 wings without the need to roll the lips.
I'm trying to get more braking power through added traction (bigger contact patch). I'm currently running 7" and 8" 16's with 205/55 and 225/50, and was thinking of putting 225/50 on the fronts and getting some 9" rears with 245/45. Will these fit without fouling ? The car is running at pretty much standard ride height, for the moment anyway !
I've also been looking at the 9M caliper upgrade kit. Replaces the OE calipers with 4pot Brembos (look very much like standard 964 as far as I can tell) plus new pads and all the mounting brackets and bolts for use with standard 3.2 discs. Not cheap at about £1200 for four corners, but might be the ultimate solution to avoid brake fade and to make the most of the extra traction from wider wheels / tyres.
Jamie
One topic that I'm sure has been covered before is what wheel tyre combination will fit under standard narrow body 3.2 wings without the need to roll the lips.
I'm trying to get more braking power through added traction (bigger contact patch). I'm currently running 7" and 8" 16's with 205/55 and 225/50, and was thinking of putting 225/50 on the fronts and getting some 9" rears with 245/45. Will these fit without fouling ? The car is running at pretty much standard ride height, for the moment anyway !
I've also been looking at the 9M caliper upgrade kit. Replaces the OE calipers with 4pot Brembos (look very much like standard 964 as far as I can tell) plus new pads and all the mounting brackets and bolts for use with standard 3.2 discs. Not cheap at about £1200 for four corners, but might be the ultimate solution to avoid brake fade and to make the most of the extra traction from wider wheels / tyres.
Jamie
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New member
The 245s will fit on your 8" wheels too. The 9" ones will stretch the tyre better though.
Do you have a Supersport? If so then you should have 930 Calipers and discs. If not, keeping the same size disc (3.2 ones) will not reduce brake fade.
Read this link, especially the words of wisdom by Bill Verburg. He knows just about everything about brake set-ups.
I think that the 245/45 on 9" rears will be fine, but does anyone have 225/50 on 7" fronts ? I am keen to have wider tyres on the front to help reduce understeer - so if I have wider rears I will also need wider fronts to maintain the front / rear balance that I have currently.
Chris,
I have a standard 3.2, so sadly no 930 brakes. I can't use the link to Pelican Parts (office thought police think it's 'non work-related' !), but as far as I can see that by using a larger brake pad surface area (with a 4 pot caliper) the same stopping power will be achieved with lighter pedal force which should generate less heat. Heat dissipation should be better with the bigger pads so heat transfer to the fluid should be less which should reduce the tendance for brake fade. (Maybe my physics is a bit rusty though !). The thinking is that if I have greater contact with the road through the wider tyres I should get more stopping power transfered before the wheels lock whilst also generating less heat through larger pads.
Does this make sense or am I way off here ???
Jamie
Chris,
I have a standard 3.2, so sadly no 930 brakes. I can't use the link to Pelican Parts (office thought police think it's 'non work-related' !), but as far as I can see that by using a larger brake pad surface area (with a 4 pot caliper) the same stopping power will be achieved with lighter pedal force which should generate less heat. Heat dissipation should be better with the bigger pads so heat transfer to the fluid should be less which should reduce the tendance for brake fade. (Maybe my physics is a bit rusty though !). The thinking is that if I have greater contact with the road through the wider tyres I should get more stopping power transfered before the wheels lock whilst also generating less heat through larger pads.
Does this make sense or am I way off here ???
Jamie
Guest
New member
Chris,
On Jamie's behalf, he does not have a supersport, just the 7&8 Fuchs.
Jamie,
I can also confirm that 245s fit on 8s or 9s. With the 9s you *may* require a 5mm spacer as the extra width is offset towards the inside. Mine were fine without the spacer but pretty close to the oil lines on the RHS and the eccentric camber adjusting bolts. I run a 7mm spacer with both the 8s and 9s to give a little extra track width. I also have longer rear studs and steel wheel nuts to facilitate this but you can use a 7mm spacer without this extra stuff. 5-6mm are better with standard studs and nuts but impossible to find in the UK.
On the front I have run 205/55 and 225/50 on 7s. The wider fronts only help a little with braking IMHO - R compounds are much better. I have front fender lips rolled and about 1.25 degrees negative camber. I need both with the 225s as the clearance is very tight - no rubbing though. My ride height is lower than yours. I would use a 225/45 next time as slightly less sidewall would make clearance less critical. I think this would still look ok as the 225/50 is fractionally taller than a 245/45.
On the brakes front, I think that the info on Pelican is useful but it depends on your problem. If brake fade is *not* your problem then the commentators who insist you need bigger rotors as well as a caliper upgrade are not correct. With PzeroCs on my car I doubt that I could lock the front wheels after a few hot laps. If this is your problem, then better clamping force from Boxster calipers is not a bad idea (I think the 9M kit is Boxster calipers not 964?). An increasing number of people have them and swear that they are the dog's danglies. A cheaper option might be to try a more aggressive track pad - although the Porterfields are pretty damn good.
One more point, to paraphrase Bill V, you only need to change to the front Boxster calipers because the rear 3.2s are big piston M calipers. Remove the proportioning valve and the bias is just about right. I just saved you about £700 so you owe me big time []
On the other hand, if you have any brake fade then the calipers will not really help at all. I have used all kinds of pads, with trick fluid and reasonably decent ducting to the fronts and I also have new brake lines and calipers all around plus a new master cylinder and I still need to get the fluid bled after every track day or two! Believe me, it is difficult to get the standard set-up to work well for track use.
I think I am on the limit of the standard brakes (as are most tracked 3.2s) but I still have a couple of tricks to try yet, including better ducting, fresh discs, different pads and (maybe) drilled discs. Oh, and of course, less weight. If all that still doesn't work then the Boxster front caliper is next on the list - although I would like to drive such a car first.
Chris P,
You must be a better man than me - I ran 225s on 8 and 245s on 9s interchangeably until as recently as mid-summer and didn't notice a difference in tramlining.
HTH
Richard
On Jamie's behalf, he does not have a supersport, just the 7&8 Fuchs.
Jamie,
I can also confirm that 245s fit on 8s or 9s. With the 9s you *may* require a 5mm spacer as the extra width is offset towards the inside. Mine were fine without the spacer but pretty close to the oil lines on the RHS and the eccentric camber adjusting bolts. I run a 7mm spacer with both the 8s and 9s to give a little extra track width. I also have longer rear studs and steel wheel nuts to facilitate this but you can use a 7mm spacer without this extra stuff. 5-6mm are better with standard studs and nuts but impossible to find in the UK.
On the front I have run 205/55 and 225/50 on 7s. The wider fronts only help a little with braking IMHO - R compounds are much better. I have front fender lips rolled and about 1.25 degrees negative camber. I need both with the 225s as the clearance is very tight - no rubbing though. My ride height is lower than yours. I would use a 225/45 next time as slightly less sidewall would make clearance less critical. I think this would still look ok as the 225/50 is fractionally taller than a 245/45.
On the brakes front, I think that the info on Pelican is useful but it depends on your problem. If brake fade is *not* your problem then the commentators who insist you need bigger rotors as well as a caliper upgrade are not correct. With PzeroCs on my car I doubt that I could lock the front wheels after a few hot laps. If this is your problem, then better clamping force from Boxster calipers is not a bad idea (I think the 9M kit is Boxster calipers not 964?). An increasing number of people have them and swear that they are the dog's danglies. A cheaper option might be to try a more aggressive track pad - although the Porterfields are pretty damn good.
One more point, to paraphrase Bill V, you only need to change to the front Boxster calipers because the rear 3.2s are big piston M calipers. Remove the proportioning valve and the bias is just about right. I just saved you about £700 so you owe me big time [
]On the other hand, if you have any brake fade then the calipers will not really help at all. I have used all kinds of pads, with trick fluid and reasonably decent ducting to the fronts and I also have new brake lines and calipers all around plus a new master cylinder and I still need to get the fluid bled after every track day or two! Believe me, it is difficult to get the standard set-up to work well for track use.
I think I am on the limit of the standard brakes (as are most tracked 3.2s) but I still have a couple of tricks to try yet, including better ducting, fresh discs, different pads and (maybe) drilled discs. Oh, and of course, less weight. If all that still doesn't work then the Boxster front caliper is next on the list - although I would like to drive such a car first.
Chris P,
You must be a better man than me - I ran 225s on 8 and 245s on 9s interchangeably until as recently as mid-summer and didn't notice a difference in tramlining.
HTH
Richard
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New member
Evidently my trigger finger is a little slow today.
Sorry to say that your physics are a little rusty. I think it is the friction not the force that generates the heat. Regardless, after much surfing of Porsche sites over the years, I can report that far smarter minds than mine confirm that there is very little heat sink or heat dissapation advantage to be gained from just a bigger 4-pot caliper - your pads will however last longer. You need a bigger rotor for heat sink or ducted cool air for dissipation.
ciao,
RB
Richard,
Thanks a lot, extremely helpful as ever. Neither brake fade nor lock up are big problems with my car in a track situation following the limited brake mods so far, but I'm still amazed at how much better 964s and 993s seem to brake on track (obviously ABS is a bit of a help in this area !), and no doubt my limited driving talent doesn't help ! Certainly with hot brakes the speed does not scrub off as quickly as I would like hence I'd like to explore the extra stopping power that the extra traction of wider tyres should allow - it might well be that the larger calipers would be of limited use without larger rotors - but then we're off into larger diameter wheels / big red / major expense territory. I'm sure there must be an economic way to optimise the 3.2 brakes within the confines of a 16" aesthetically standard looking set-up.
Incidentally, what's the procedure for bleeding the brakes ? My brake pedal is a bit spongy feeling at the moment and I'm sure would benefit from bleeding. I'm doing the Slverstone GP circuit on Monday so if it's something I can do over the weekend with limited tools I might give it a go !
Jamie
Thanks a lot, extremely helpful as ever. Neither brake fade nor lock up are big problems with my car in a track situation following the limited brake mods so far, but I'm still amazed at how much better 964s and 993s seem to brake on track (obviously ABS is a bit of a help in this area !), and no doubt my limited driving talent doesn't help ! Certainly with hot brakes the speed does not scrub off as quickly as I would like hence I'd like to explore the extra stopping power that the extra traction of wider tyres should allow - it might well be that the larger calipers would be of limited use without larger rotors - but then we're off into larger diameter wheels / big red / major expense territory. I'm sure there must be an economic way to optimise the 3.2 brakes within the confines of a 16" aesthetically standard looking set-up.
Incidentally, what's the procedure for bleeding the brakes ? My brake pedal is a bit spongy feeling at the moment and I'm sure would benefit from bleeding. I'm doing the Slverstone GP circuit on Monday so if it's something I can do over the weekend with limited tools I might give it a go !
Jamie
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New member
Go to halfords and get the little bleeder kit. It's a hose with a 1 way valve on it.
Now start bleeding the system. Start with the left rear caliper, the one that's located furthest away from the master cylinder. You will have to remove the rear wheels of the car to easily get to the rear caliper. The front wheels can be turned for access to the calipers. Bleed the left rear caliper by attaching a hose to the bleed nipple, placing it in a jar, and then opening the valve with a 7mm spanner turning it anti-clockwise. Let the fluid out until there are no more bubbles. You need to find someone to press on the pedal repeatedly to force fluid through the system.
When no more air bubbles come out of the different colour fluid (such as Ate Super Blue), then move to the next caliper. Bleed them in this order:
Rear Left
Rear Right
Front Left
Front Right
This is assuming you have a right hand drive car. Always make sure you top up the reservoir as you go so as not to suck air into the system.
Guest
New member
Repeat until you can no longer see any air bubbles coming out of any of the calipers.
Now, make sure that all the bleeder valves are closed tightly. Now, get your family member to press down repeatedly on the brake pedal at least five times, and then hold it down. Then open the bleeder valve on the left rear caliper. The system should lose pressure, and the pedal should sink to the floor. When the fluid stops coming out of the bleeder valve, close the valve, and then tell your family member to let their foot off of the pedal. Do not let them take their foot off until you have completely closed the valve. Repeat this motion for each valve at least three times. Repeat this entire procedure for all the valves in the same order as described previously.
Then, let the car sit for about 10 minutes. Repeat the bleeding process at each corner. The pedal should now feel pretty stiff.
All this was para-phrased from a Pelican Parts tech article here if you can access it away from work.
Now, make sure that all the bleeder valves are closed tightly. Now, get your family member to press down repeatedly on the brake pedal at least five times, and then hold it down. Then open the bleeder valve on the left rear caliper. The system should lose pressure, and the pedal should sink to the floor. When the fluid stops coming out of the bleeder valve, close the valve, and then tell your family member to let their foot off of the pedal. Do not let them take their foot off until you have completely closed the valve. Repeat this motion for each valve at least three times. Repeat this entire procedure for all the valves in the same order as described previously.
Then, let the car sit for about 10 minutes. Repeat the bleeding process at each corner. The pedal should now feel pretty stiff.
All this was para-phrased from a Pelican Parts tech article here if you can access it away from work.
Chris,
Thanks for that ! The Pelican technical bits are ok, it's just the forum I can't access. The whole bleeding process looks waaaaaay more hassle than I can be bothered with on a cold November day ! I must sort that avatar out (don't nor ever have had a Supersport), but there isn't a plain 3.2 Carrera avatar available.
Jamie
Thanks for that ! The Pelican technical bits are ok, it's just the forum I can't access. The whole bleeding process looks waaaaaay more hassle than I can be bothered with on a cold November day ! I must sort that avatar out (don't nor ever have had a Supersport), but there isn't a plain 3.2 Carrera avatar available.
Jamie
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New member
I think 245/45 look good on 8/16, which is what I have at the rear (with 205/55 on 7/16 at the front), and that 9/16 stretch the tyre too much
And the 8/16 are lighter, of course !. And need no spacers.
Mine is as low as it will go (or, as low as RUF wanted to do), and I have had to have the fronts rolled, as the top of the tyre 'hides' inside the arch - even then, they rub slightly on full lock (mini-roundabouts).
And the 8/16 are lighter, of course !. And need no spacers.
Mine is as low as it will go (or, as low as RUF wanted to do), and I have had to have the fronts rolled, as the top of the tyre 'hides' inside the arch - even then, they rub slightly on full lock (mini-roundabouts).
The easy bleed kit from halfords (aroundn £15) uses a spare wheel to pressure the system - works very well on 944's and allows one man bleeding - if you are getting fade - it is worth replacing the fluid if it has not been done within 2 years (brake fluid absorbs moisture with time), and adding ducting to the brakes even if it is only temporary for track days will also help.
Tony
Tony
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