Engine/gearbox disaster ??

[Guest]

Tonight my brief ownership of a lovely Boxster S may well have come to an end. I was driving my normal 20 mile route home when all hell broke loose. I was stationary in a line of traffic approaching a roundabout, I put the car in first and let the clutch out and suddenly the whole thing died. The engine stopped, all the lights came on and then went off. I tried restarting and all I got was a click click sound as if the battery was flat. After about six attempts to get things going it finally caught and I was able to pull the car over onto the verge mainly to allow the rapidly increasing queue behind me to go home. I was about 20 yds from the roundabout and moved the car off the verge to get to the 1st exit of the roundabout which led to a quiet village lane where could stop and figure out what had happened, As I moved the car there was this awful metallic rattling sound and then smoothness from the engine, this sequence continued as I moved the car along.I moved the car in total 100yds most of it freewheeling until I found a suitable place for it to die. With engine stopped I looked under the car to see an increasing puddle of oil appear from the front end of the engine. I called the RAC who were great and got the car back home, on the back of a low loader. I will be giving Porsche a call in the morning. It looks like some kind of catastrophic engine failure has occured and I will know more tomorrow. The car has just done 26000 miles.and is almost four years old. I bought it from an OPC at 2.5 years old with 12500 on the clock. I dont thrash this lovely car around although I know it will take whatever I can give it, it has never been on a track day as far as I am aware and I am 48 years old and not a boy racer, I respect other drivers and would not degrade the image of the Boxster owning fraternity. Prior to the incident I had been driving for about 25 minutes, the engine was performing normally and there were no warning signs, no lights nothing, the machine just died. |The car has a full service history and six months ago had the RMS changed by my OPC and has run fine ever since. I decided not to renew my Porsche extended warranty ( although in hindsight!!) after a row about the rear trailing arms which had to be changed after 3 years and 17000 miles.
My question is has anyone heard of this happening to such a low mileage Porsche and secondly does anyone know what could have happened. I put it out for discussion before the OPC give me the awful truth.

 

[Richard_Hamilton]

If it was a catastrophic failure, you are very likely to have a big puddle of oil on the floor, or at least a lot of oil in the water or vice-versa, Wait and see what the OPC say - there isn't much point in speculating here, it won't help you sleep any easier. Take a look at the 996 forum and the thread titled "It went bang and then it died". Turned out to be an alternator failed.

 

[Gary C]

Yes but as he mentioned, a puddle of oil was on the floor.

Does not sound good. I know you dont have any warranty, but dont tell them you moved it after the engine originally died as they may try to blame some of the damage on the subsequent running.

An engine failure with this little mileage, you might be able to apeal to Porsche directly.

 

[russtbird]

I hope it is something much simpler/cheaper, but it sounds as if it could be a failed Intermediate Shaft/bearing - this can happen at any time, usually at low-medium speeds.
Not sure if it helps, but as you had it serviced at an OPC for the RMS, can you/they be sure what was done/not done at that time which may have had a secondary effect? - any element of doubt coupled with the repair/service guarantee from the last time they had it, may help you in any appeal. Good luck.

 

[Guest]

Thanks Gentlemen for your responses.
I have just returned from the OPC. The man who deals with the input of broken cars did actually say that in his experience ( and off the record ) that my description of events suggested a strong possibillity of an intermediate shaft failure. They will be examing the car tomorrow to find out exactly what has failed. The broken shaft within the crankcase also explains the rattling and general sound of self destruction. It looks like a new engine is required.
The OPC rep did say that if this shaft has failed then they would put a case forward to Porsche in view of the low mileage to come to some kind of deal?
When a rear main seal is changed am I correct in saying that the flange bolts for the intermediate shaft should be replaced, it appears to say that in my copy of the Boxster service manual (Bentley Publishers). The RMS was replaced by Porsche back in April 2007.
I willl await their verdict tomorrow.

 

[Geoff_Fields]

Lets hope Porsche do the right thing and pick up the tab on this one. Very best of luck.

 

[Black80XSA]

Good luck - the OPC will be charging about £12k for a new engine, so lets hope Porsche pick up some of the cost !

 

[Rodney Naghar]

Good luck with the result you may get some goodwill out of them.

Whatever you do, don't take a £12k engine offer from Porsche (it won't be a new engine anyway), you can get used ones for around £3-4k+fitting.

If Porsche do offer you anything FOC, make sure you pay at least a notional sum towards it, otherwise they won't be interested in any claims on it if it also fails.

 

[Richard_Hamilton]

ORIGINAL: Gary C
Yes but as he mentioned, a puddle of oil was on the floor.

Sorry - must read more carefully!

 

[jimso]

Hi Rob. I'm really sorry to hear about your problem. I know I would be sick to my stomach if it happened to me.

Having had my car for a little over a year and been a member for just a little while longer, I have noted a number of references in various posts to issues associated with the Intermediate Shaft and bearing.
It does seem to be something of a weakness in what in general, appears to be a very robust and well put together engine.

I wonder just how the statistics stack up for this particular failure? To my mind, a forum such as this one is likely to get a fair amount of input on matters problematical. Where is the point in regularly posting that you've got through another week of trouble free ownership? A significant number of posts therefore are associated with Porsche problems and failings. If one used the forum as an indicator of the quality and reliability of the marque, you might easily conclude that you might be better off owning a Jeep. Apologies to any Jeep owners here! [8|]

So, what proportion of cars suffer this significant level of failure? I'm sure Porsche have some closely garded statistics to hand. Can anyone hazard a guess at the numbers?

 

[JCB..]

Very very small number is my guess.

In the 7.5 years that I have owned my car and been associated with this register UK people posting or emailing the Boxster Yahoo group probably haven't gone in to double figures (reporting a major failure that is).

There was the "slipped sleeve" issue with a batch of 2.5 engines.

No consolation I know.

 

[Guest]

Thans Jimso for your sympathetic view.

The actaul news from the OPC is that the intermediate shaft has failed. They say the shaft fractured where the retaining nut attaches causing the shaft to wreck itself and the engine within the crankcase. The result = a new/ replacement engine. Their rough estimate at this time is around 10 K. However they are fairly optimistic that Porsche will make some kind of goodwill offer. I will know just what that offer will be next week.

I have trawled through this forum to see if this has happened before and it has on several occasions, twice occuring on 03 registered cars with similar mileage to my 53 car, do a search on intermediate shafts and its all there including pictures and a good explanation from a contributor named Tool pants who it seems knows his stuff. The comforting thing being that Porsche did make suitable goodwill offers on one of these cars. I live in hope!

 

[Chris_911]

The fact that Porsche have made documented 'goodwill' gestures should only strengthen your case.

Really sorry to hear you've suffered such a catastrophic failure.

I'm hoping it turns out well for you.

 

[David Hooper]

ORIGINAL: JCB..

Very very small number is my guess.

In the 7.5 years that I have owned my car and been associated with this register UK people posting or emailing the Boxster Yahoo group probably haven't gone in to double figures (reporting a major failure that is).

There was the "slipped sleeve" issue with a batch of 2.5 engines.

No consolation I know.

John, your're right , it is no consolation. Not having a go at you John, but this thing really gets me going.
What about the 996 register?
What about the engines worldwide we know nothing about?
What about the fact that the owners of watercooled engined cars are not members of PCGB and are not on this forum? More Porsche drivers are not on this forum or in this club than are.
What about the owners who had their engine go bang then went back to BMW/Merc/Audi. that we know nothing about?

A Porsche engine should not go bang at 20k. Also saying "Oh well you've done 50k now and it's 5 years old so sorry we need £10k to fix it" is not acceptable.

At one point, and it still crops up, all of us in the trade were well aware of the stacks of 996/Boxster engines in crates round the back of every OPC in the country. I would also suggest it is one of the reasons for the low prices of Boxster's as this problem begins to become more well known.

Are people in denial of this well documented problem with this engine?
Is it because being British and having bought an expensive, allegedly high quality peice of German engineering, we cannot bring ourselves to admit that it has a major and recurring fault?
If this was a British product it would be all over the press, on Watchdog, they'd probably bring back Ester Ransom to do a special.

Jaguar and BMW had major problems with bore linings and swallowed the pill by stumping up for new engines. Jaguar were still stumping up after 60k miles and over 5 years old! Every time I pick up a Porsche related magazine there's a new profit announcement quoting millions of euro's. It's obscene they have not sorted this problem.
As for it being a small problem, try and find a used 996/Boxster engine from the breakers if yours goes bang.
If a well respected and long time Porsche specialist, Autofarm, can make money by fixing the problem themselves for customers, is it a small problem?

It was one of the reason's I sold the Boxster, lovely car that it was, having an engineering background I just could not cope with firing it up every morning and straining to hear a different noise in case it was about to go bang.
AND they still haven't fixed the rear main seal problem[]

I just hope they don't start re-engineering Audi/VW's engines now they own them.

Cheers
Dave

 

[daro911]

ORIGINAL: David Hooper

At one point, and it still crops up, all of us in the trade were well aware of the stacks of 996/Boxster engines in crates round the back of every OPC in the country. I would also suggest it is one of the reasons for the low prices of Boxster's as this problem begins to become more well known.

Are people in denial of this well documented problem with this engine?


Every time I pick up a Porsche related magazine there's a new profit announcement quoting millions of euro's.

It was one of the reason's I sold the Boxster, lovely car that it was, having an engineering background I just could not cope with firing it up every morning and straining to hear a different noise in case it was about to go bang.

Cheers
Dave

I would suggest the lower residual prices on Boxsters today is due to supply and demand, far more so, than any rare technical glitches and being in the trade you would know this situation is applicable to every manufacturers range at given times.

Even the perfectly engineered [] and much sort after Ferrari 430 is struggling to sell in the current climate and residuals have fallen massively in past 6 months. Ferrari 360's have been hit even harder as supply out strips the current demands.

I do believe the millions of Euro's profits you mention were mainly made off the back of the phenomenal success of both the 986 & 996 between 1996 - 2004 Imagine how much more would have been made had the engineering been up to speed [&o]

The cream on the euro cake was then pushed even higher with the success of the KN Kman 997 987 despite the continued failure of the RMS in the minority of cars sold []

The flat six is also an inherently low engine. Its placement immediately ahead of the rear axle offers the Boxster excellent balance, a low center of gravity, and renowned neutral handling characteristics. Early production M96 engines had a small but significant number of engine failures due to cracked cylinder liners, but since a minor redesign in 2000 these problems have been resolved.


The Porsche
Boxster is a convertible sports car released in late 1996. The Boxster has a mid-mounted engine, two doors, two seats, and a folding cloth roof. Throughout its production it has been Porsche's smallest and least expensive sports car model.

The Boxster's name plays on the words 'boxer' (its horizontally-opposed engine configuration) and 'roadster'. Boxster production began at the former Porsche 928

facility at Stuttgart after the 928 was discontinued due to poor sales. Boxsters are also manufactured in Uusikaupunki, Finland by Valmet under contract to Porsche.

986The styling of the Boxster is owed to former "Style Porsche" department head Harm Lagaay. His Boxster design study and the production Boxster stimulated a commercial turnaround for Porsche after several difficult years of falling sales. Porsche internally designated the first generation of the Boxster the 986. The visual appearance of the 986 is heavily inspired by the Porsche Spyder and Speedster

. The Boxster features two models; the standard model with a 200 bhp (149 kW), 2.5 L flat six cylinder engine (enlarged to 2.7 L and 225 bhp (168 kW) in later model years), and the model "S" with an enlarged 3.2 L engine producing 258 bhp (192 kW). One unique styling feature on both the 986 and 987 is the automatically extending rear spoiler that extends at 75mph and retracts at 56mph which pushes down on the back end to increase steering control and stability. Combining the traditional Porsche virtues of quality, reliability, performance, and handling, with styling reminiscent of the larger 911

(to the point where buyers of the 911 complained that their car looked too similar to the Boxster), the car has been popular both with car industry journalists and with buyers. It was Porsche's biggest volume seller from its introduction in model year 1997 until the company introduced the Cayenne
SUV in model year 2003.

987Porsche internally designated the second generation of the Boxster the 987. The 987 Boxster made its debut at the 2004 Paris Motor Show alongside the 997 911

. The car became available for model year 2005.

The appearance of the car remains very similar to the previous generation. The base engine is a 2.7 L 176 kW (240 PS) flat-6, with the Boxster S getting a 3.2 L 206 kW (280 PS) engine.

AwardsThe Boxster has been on Car and Driver magazine's annual Ten Best list seven times, from 1998 through 2003 and in 2006.

The Boxster S (986s) was rated as one of the top ten Porsches of all time by Excellence magazine.
[ Visit the complete Wikipedia entry for Porsche Boxster ]

 

[David Hooper]

Early production M96 engines had a small but significant number of engine failures due to cracked cylinder liners, but since a minor redesign in 2000 these problems have been resolved.

So why is it still happening on post 2000 engines?
The chap who started this thread has an 03/53.

Agree on the residuals to a point, and the amount of cars built has an affect on the resale value, but so does that company's engineering and past warranty history.

Having pointed out the success of the car Daro, I presume you are alluding to the fact that it is a small percentage that have a problem? But a small % of a big number is a lot of cars and a lot of disappointed people.

If thats the case, with all the profit swilling around Stuttgart, why don't they enhance their image even further by fixing the engines concerned? Maybe because the money is there due to not paying out warranty problems.

Even better, give us a 3 year warranty. Or is that too difficult because only around 20 odd per cent of the car is built by Porsche themselves?

It just galls me that even just a few customer's are let down after buying, for some, a life long ambition of a Porsche to have it go bang on the pootle home and be faced with a massive bill. It was expected of a TVR, in fact a right of passage, but I'm not sure if their record of catastrophic engine failure was a big a % as Porsche.

Anyway Rob, I hope and trust you get treated fairly - and cheaply in the wallet area.

Cheers
Dave

 

[daro911]

ORIGINAL: David Hooper

So why is it still happening on post 2000 engines?
The chap who started this thread has an 03/53.

Agree on the residuals to a point, and the amount of cars built has an affect on the resale value, but so does that company's engineering and past warranty history.

Having pointed out the success of the car Daro, I presume you are alluding to the fact that it is a small percentage that have a problem? But a small % of a big number is a lot of cars and a lot of disappointed people.

Even better, give us a 3 year warranty. Or is that too difficult because only around 20 odd per cent of the car is built by Porsche themselves?

Dave

Dave ... Whilst I agree with many of your views I just wish Toyoto had given Porsche the same help with technical issues as they did designing there super profitable factories and production lines [] I am sure the % of failures world wide whilst annoying and worrying are no worse than many other car makers stats.

I think one of the biggest changes in "Porsche motoring world" has been from a small time sports car maker of exceptional quality and engineered cars many decades ago. Since that era the rest of the world has caught up and some have sailed pass but fortunately Porsche is able to still live on it's past extremely impressive engineering and race success whilst still making some of the worlds most exciting and involving sports cars which maybe no better screwed together or more bullet proof than the best of the rest on offer today.

 

[oliver]

These failures are small in numbers, but do generate a disproportionate amount of headlines.

The evidence is in the cost of the extended warranty. At only £895 per annum (which includes a profit margin for the underwriter, Porsche and the retailer) the total number of claims of all kinds must be fairly minimal.

Check out the extended warranty premiums and claim limits from other manufacturers, such as Land Rover, BMW, etc.

Running a 986/987/996/997 with a warranty is best, although there is the goodwill matrix.

Bear in mind that OPC/PCGB generosity does not always extend to unofficial imports.

 

[JCB..]

ORIGINAL: David Hooper

Early production M96 engines had a small but significant number of engine failures due to cracked cylinder liners, but since a minor redesign in 2000 these problems have been resolved.

So why is it still happening on post 2000 engines?
The chap who started this thread has an 03/53.

It isn't - the intermediate shaft is what failed on this occasion.

 

[bmurphy]

This happened to my friends 03 Boxtser S and Porsche picked up the tab.