Engine Upgrade

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: Fen

ORIGINAL: pauly

ORIGINAL: Fen

It's currently in my car, but I want it out so there's more room for something American with a few more cylinders []. I'll drop you a mail now so I can give you some more details off-line.

There must be a more suitable home just waiting for this engine surely.





Like a 968 maybe, [][].

[] To be honest I don't really mind where it ends up. Nor do I mind if the OP doesn't think it's right for him, but I'm confused by the logic for ruling it out as it sounds pretty close to his ideal to me.

I still think a 968 turbo would be a nice project, a 3.0 turbo conversion seems to be a moneypit but droping in a fit 2.5 engine makes sense to me, if I could find a cheap or blown up 968 I'd be interested in your engine Fen, but I've never heard of one for sale. Let me know what you are asking for the engine.

Paul.

 

[Peter Empson]

ORIGINAL: Tam Lin

BTW, who did you get to fit the supercharger? Just so that I know, when I get bored with 190bhp/ton...

No one yet, it's still in its box []
When the cars body is finished I will be fitting as much of it as I can (assuming I have the spare time, whenever that is). For the final fitment I'll be taking it over to Ollie at RPM, he's worked on a few SC cars and seems keen to see this one working. The instructions suggest about 10 hours labour, but I can't see how they get that based on what's supplied, it realy doesn't look that involved (although I'm not expecting any of it to fit first time!)

 

[zcacogp]

Chaps,

I may have missed the point, but we haven't really answered the OP's question. He wants to tune a Lux. The answer seems to be that it isn't worth it.

As far as engine swaps go, the advice of a good American friend comes to mind - "Don't build a car you can buy." If you want a turbocharged 944, go and buy a turbocharged 944. If you want a 944 with a 3.0 16v engine in it, go and buy an S2. Building cars with engine swaps is the route to heartache and ruination, and not one I would recommend to anyone. (Ask me, I've done it, and I won't be going it again.)

There are only two situations where this doesn't seem to apply: 1) If you really, really want something that was never built (yank-propelled 951, perhaps, or a 968 turbo - only ever built in tiny numbers), or 2) Your name is Mr P. Empson esq. Your sanity will be slightly questioned in both instances.


Oli.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

There are only two situations where this doesn't seem to apply:

To add a third, if you want something as specific as the lighter 924 shell with a 16v or turbo lump.

Or, a fourth, if you have a really good shell (possibly even without a sunroof) that needs a new engine anyway, and a really rusty car with a good engine.

Either way it's going to involve a lot of work. So, either very expensive or you do it yourself.

Of course none of these really explain Peter's route....[][][]

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

To add a third, if you want something as specific as the lighter 924 shell with a 16v or turbo lump.

I'd refer my (very) learned friend to my earlier comments, and suggest that a 924 with a 16v or turbo lump is "something that was never built".

Making one decent car out of two faulty ones (one rusty, one with a duff engine) is an option, but I'd question whether the costs really work out - when you consider the residual value of the cars in terms of parts, vs. the time taken to build one good car and the consequent value of that car. Although, as a project it could be worth it for the experience.

Totally agree with your comment about Mr Empson. I suspect he will be along soon to agree as well! []


Oli.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I'd refer my (very) learned friend to my earlier comments, and suggest that a 924 with a 16v or turbo lump is "something that was never built".

Ah, but it would be a logical progression. I refer M'Lud to the fact that the 924 was already fitted with the 2.5 N/A engine, but it was withdrawn before the 16V or 3.0 block were released.

I rest my case, of course. My learned friend should be aware that there were two generations of turbo'd 924......[][]

 

[ocallen]

What a load of advice for me to take on board.
Firstly when I talk about a engine transplant in 24/48 hours I am presuming the replacement engine has been rebuilt, all necessary work done before it's offered to the car. I also presume the company doing this will have done it before, I will have received recommendations from people already supplied by this company with a similar conversion. All parts needed will have been obtained.
Secondly, the turbo engine written about sounds very good on paper but if I bought something like that I would want it rebuilt before it goes into my car. I've been around motor cars long enough to know what I can have faith in is what I've seen being done.
I know what I want, I have ideals that I work to and although we are only talking about an old 944 I want to do ot all properly as I did when I had my RS sorted or other pretty impressive cars I've owned.
Please don't knock me for not wanting to take the route others would. I came on here for advice on how to upgrade my car and I hoped a number of people would join in and say "I did so and so and I was pleased with the results" so that I could compare and then decide for myself what I wanted.

 

[pauly]

Whatever you build will be worth a small fortune, of course it will cost a large fortune to build it. [][][].

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: ocallen

I hoped a number of people would join in and say "I did so and so and I was pleased with the results" so that I could compare and then decide for myself what I wanted.

Unfortunately you will not get a plethora of replies saying that as hardly anyone that we know of in the club has done this because certainly the easiest and cheapest route is to buy the 3L S2 having left Porsche to do all the hard work of fitting everything at the factory.

This is not to discourage you as we all like to see slightly different variations of our cars, and some of us would love to see some totally off the wall and wacky installations (my own engine is hardly standard after all []). I'm not sure where in the country you are but centrally located RPM or JZ Machtech would be a good bet to talk to initially as they have both done this work before.

 

[Fen]

I'm not knocking what you want to do and I apologise if my posts came across that way. I interpret your idea as wanting to get more go than a tuned 2.5 NA engine can produce in the shell of an early car, which is building something that you can't buy. What I don't know is what you intend to do with the car once it's finished, but my advice would be that if you're going to be happy with 200-ish BHP then an S2 engine is probably your best bet, but if you harbour any thoughts of tuning beyond that figure then a Turbo unit is the one to fit. That is assuming you want to stick with a Porsche engine.

I think what you're saying is that if you were to have bought my engine you'd have wanted to rebuild it. As it has recently been rebuilt by an independent that I have no experience of but believe to be well respected then I have to assume either you have a stong aversion to something that has been used in a race car or that you'd rebuild any engine you buy, in which case I would suggest you may as well start looking for parts. It's not a problem that it isn't for you, but having been in the position of buyer last year I bought this engine specifically because it had been recently rebuilt so it didn't need to be opened

As an alternative Nick with the 3.0 turbo 968 had his complete original 968 engine for sale last I knew. I think his username is nick968.

 

[ocallen]

I had a BMW that I fitted (I had fitted by a engineer) a Vortex (I think thats how it was spelt) supercharger fitted to, simple installation, came in fairly low down the revs range and gave a good increase in power without being silly. I've had cars that I've aimed for lots of power and then they are not useable daily.
Forgetting the Ninemeister conversions, has anybody fitted a supercharger to a 2.5 Lux without wanting max power?
What about John Mitchell's conversions, can an ordinary 2.5 (non turbo) be taken out to more capacity and more power?
Will a Promax chip, everything else they do take it to nearly 200bhp? One of the magazines didn't get the power from some of their bits as advertised.
Taking out the middle exhaust box or having a specialist exhaust, will that improve things ?

 

[Peter Empson]

Hi Nicholas,
I certainly would encourage you to do it if it's what you want, we just want you to go into it with your eyes wide open to the potential expense and timescales.

I don't regret doing mine at all, although as mentioned before I don't think I'd do the same today, cheap S2's are probably half the price they were when I did mine. My other reason was I had an awful lot more than the car was worth invested in brakes and suspension at that point (it was always my plan to do the car in stages and that's exactly how it's worked out over the last decade or more).

Apologies if you've stated this before and I've missed it, but are you using the car for road or track use? If it's track then I think there are much better ways to spend your money which will shave a lot off your laptimes and give you more entertainment too.

If you don't want to accept the compromises that a track car will bring then it's tricky to know what to suggest without the engine change (a budget would help too if you have any idea)

I think a low boost SC would be a lot of fun, the trouble is it's going to be quite expensive unless you diy a lot of it, the only kits on the market are pretty expensive. If you could get away without an intercooler (might be possible on a low boost road car) then it will simplify the plumbing somwhat.

Much as I'm no fan, Nitrous must be way up their for value for money, but personaly I couldn't be bothered with refilling the bottles.

I'd expect a worthwile engine capacity increase to be unpleasently expensive, an engine swap will probably be much cheaper.

I feel there are only minimal gains to be made with the exhaust (we modified mine, intially making it effectively a straight through (unpleasent noise, perceived loss of torque) and one silencer removed (noise and perceived improvement in breathing, it was subtle but I'd do it again).

A chip will not get you much in the way of gains either, but can be nice to have as it improves driveability. The Promax ones seem nicely developed and IMO are amongst the best off the shelf ones. The magazine article you mention I think refers to the SciVision MAF which is quite a different thing. The ideal is a proper rolling road rechip after you've done all the rest of your mods.

I could go on (I normally do), but it's late and the rest would be even more gibberish if done tonight []

 

[ocallen]

Most of my driving is done with me alone in my car and the typical driving I do is 2 or 3 hour long journeys through the Cotswolds up to Rutland. Otherwise from Cheltenham to London on the A40 & M40. I have had several 944s over the years and the size of car, practicality and running costs always come back to me as an ideal. I also worked in the motor industry for 20+ years and have a horror of owning cars that depreciate so I either buy them at the bottom of their depreciation or have something that will hold its value (rare though that is now).
So the 944 that handles well on A or B type roads with a bit of acceleration when needed is almost the ideal. I would like to do some of the Speed events, maybe Goodwood and Gurston. I think there I shouldn't go silly on power otherwise I will be placing myself in the wrong class.

 

[idwoodvale]

My own experience of spending money sorting a 2.5 8v engine:

Crank rebuild
Rebore and oversized rings
Head skim and rebuild by John Mitchell
K&N air filter with cold feed
Promax chip
Blue Flame exhaust

....the result.
Smoother & more responsive, bit more mid-range pull. Much lighter wallet.
Good noise from the exhaust though.

 

[ocallen]

Have you any idea what bhp you were then getting ?
Did John Mitchell do all the work and can you give me some of the costs involved ?

 

[idwoodvale]

Hi,

I sent the cylinder head to John for reconditioning, porting and skimming. He then sent it to me and I had it refitted elsewhere. Cost for the work was around the £600 mark I think. I'd had a head gasket failure and decided to try to eek a little more out of the car whilst I was at it. Never had the car on a dyno after the work though. Car felt like it had more mid-range torque but I decided the dyno figure would be fairly irrelevant.

Prior to that I'd had the crank and rebore stuff done at the same time as a new clutch and all belts and rollers - around £4k. This was done after a crank failure (after around 200miles after buying the car - []) had scored all the cylinders with shrapnel. The dyno after that was still only 160bhp at the flywheel. Again though, the before and after was mostly just a smoother more responsive engine.

All in all I'd say that I wouldn't bother again with spending big money on a 2.5 8v.
If you do go ahead with the engine you have then maybe it would be adviseable to speak to, and have the whole job done by one person who has done it before - such as the guys at EMC. They did tell me that 190bhp is attainable but at severely reduced mpg.

If still you fancy the idea of ending up with something a little different, rather than the more sensible option of just buying an S2 or Turbo, then my advice would be start with a different engine. Once my car is back from the bodyshop I'm considering doing just that. It would have been far more sensible to sell it on as it is and start again - but I'm attached to it. Other excuse is that I know exactly where I am with the car and am not starting from scratch with a new one.

..I can also argue that I kept another earlyish 944 on the road rather than let it rot.[]

I think I echo the message from most of the other chaps. Go in to anything like this with your eyes (and wallet) wide open.

 

[ocallen]

I think one of your comments summed up my case, I like the car. The colour is right for me. Years ago I ordered a new Morgan. I had seven years to decide on spec and took six deciding on colour going to various Morgan rallies, looking at every other car on the road, before I chose the BMW colour as close to my 944 as is possible. I chose dark red for the leather interior (maybe not my choice now but I'll keep you informed). I wanted Fuchs, easier on the age of car I have. I didn't want a cracked dash or the early instruements. I love the look of the 924 GTS, GTR, I want the vented badge panel, I want fixed headlights, I don't want a rear wiper, I want 935 style mirrors, I want a Cal look on a 944. Yes, a S2 or 968 engine still has the appeal., 220/250 bhp will make an interesting car. If it costs me £10k-£12k but I know its spot on then I consider that the deal. Only thing I do not want to do is a full respray as I want to park in the supermarket carpark and worry about a scratch or new dent. It has a few but so does a £1M 1960s Le Mans car. Does Mr Empson have an idea of what his project is going to cost ? Love the way his project is going but not sure, probably missed the detail, what engine is going there.

 

[Peter Empson]

Great post Nicholas, sounds like you've got entirely the right idea to me []

I think your budget should get you to where you want to be quite easily. Mine has cost a bit more if I'm honest, I had to sit down and work it out for the insurance and it would be a bit over twice the higher figure mentioned to build one to the same spec again. This has been spread over a few years however so in my defence I'm not completely mad. Honest.

Ok, to disprove that, when I have the space I hope to build a full on 924 GTR widebody, it will look retro but be anything but underneath the paint. I imagine it will have a tweaked 944T engine (one of SimonP's large capacity ones if he's still making them). This will be a really long term project and I want to do as much as I can myself, so completion would be years away.

The engine in mine is an S2 lump, the cylinder head has been tweaked by SimonP but that's about it for the internals, I'm waiting to see how the boost experiments go before deciding what to do with the bottom end.

 

[333pg333]

FWIW, I think that you won't get what you want from playing with the stock 2.5L n/a motor. I think if you go to the trouble and expense of supercharging that you will want for more boost and top end kick before long. With a 16v head and extra capacity s/c'ing an S2 or 968 would be more interesting as Peter will attest soon. If you go down the turbo path you can have plenty of hp for not an excessive amount, but again, you soon want more and this can become very expensive. Ultimately I think Fen had it right when investigating a V8 conversion. You would spend most of your money right at the beginning and then once done it's done. I wouldn't dick around with the Rover motor, just buy one of those Chev crate motors. There's plenty of info available if you look around. I have spent more money on my 951s than most and if given the chance to turn back the clock I would think very long and hard about doing this conversion myself.

 

[NEIL2]

SPEND YOR CASH ON A LATE 944 AND GO FROM THERE ,BIG BRAKES AS STANDARD AND MORE SCOPE TO IMPROVE .