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For fun, not bar bragging, lap times, but fun..

Even in a lightened car a 2.5 engine still doesn't have enough breakaway torque to maintain power drifts at speeds slow enough to avoid massive and potentially dangerous slides, of course short of driving over a fine puddle of water.

Fitting bicycle wheels will help, but the polar moment of inertia on these cars is so high that the rear end may get as lively as on an old 911. Could be fun though.
 
I am guessing, but I think the result might actually be something which is built from the parts bin of cheap to obtain parts from different models, something that is cheap to run (in particular the narrow tyres), and is buckets of fun... Not to mention, may be a lot less stressed than an impressive car, so will be even more bullet proof as a track toy.

But if nothing else, from this thought process about "fun" versus "impressive", I have a new line of questions to ask customers

Jon, think about it, once upon a time a Company set up in a sawmill at Gmund and delved into the Wolfsburg parts bin......the results were simple cheap (to manufacture) fun cars. I agree with you in the regard that cars can become too fast, the 80's / 90's GTi which TTM refers to are cheap? reliable simple fun for Road use. Track work is different, I don't do it so cant say.

TTM, in 2013 you seem to think a car needs 350bhp to be worth talking about, and I must agree or I would sell mine and buy a 924S, and I do not feel inclined to do that. I think improved roads, more traffic and faster traffic make this necessary. In 1983 the average family saloon / rep mobile was powered by 65 - 90bhp engines and handling was dire (Cortinas, Marina's/Itals, Cavaliers), The Heavy goods population were AEC's Leylands, Seddon Atkinson, ERF's, which were incapable of greater than 55mph in 90% of cases. So a Golf GTI with 105bhp was a fantastic tool. Today, with Twin turbo V8 Scanias pulling 26 tonnes uphill on the limiter,and Turbo diesel VW's capable of 140mph - it seems necessary to have greater power in a road car to maintain the performance differential. Our grand-children will require veyrons, on bicycle wheels[;)]. Serious question TTM, how would the polar moment of inertia be influenced in chassis tuning?? Is it weight or geometry, or something else?
George
944t



 
Honestly I don't think any 944/968 is a good candidate to hoon about like that. The polar moment thing means the slip angle that you can drive to isn't that big till you get into the unrecoverable spin domain. Not much you can do about it either as its the combination of wheelbase, engine and gearbox positions that are the culprits. Anyone who has tried to drive these cars fast on track has been there and done that, part of what makes them so satisfying is that they are a bit magical in the times when you have the car balanced with a little bit of slip, nailing the throttle through the apex and don't spin.

A stripped out E36 non evo M3 is a better cheap candidate for this sort of hooning IMHO.

I agree with TTM on what is cheap fun, honestly something like a grands worth of Puma would be hard to argue against, I can still recall being blown away by that cars handling when they came out.
 
ORIGINAL: George Elliott
Serious question TTM, how would the polar moment of inertia be influenced in chassis tuning?? Is it weight or geometry, or something else?

See what Neil nicely explained.

Real world situation that I'm sure you have experienced already - jump on the brakes from say 100 mph and turn the wheel as if you were entering a curve. The rear end will break loose fast enough so that you may not be able to get the car back in line. The clutch-type LSD will help control the effect somehow but even then the rear end can snap if the driver is not fully focused on what he/she is doing. I heard of people replacing the brake bias valve with the one from a 928 GTS which balances front/rear braking more towards the rear, perhaps Neil has some feedback on this?

But then even if you get enough breakaway torque to spin rear tyres at low speeds when abruptly opening the throttle (which is not going to happen with a standard-ish 2.5 engine on the dry), the LSD won't help when the car gets past the critical slip angle beyond which it cannot be put back in line.

To help Jon float his boat though, I would say we would probably have to affect the handling of these cars so badly to make them unstable at low speeds that they wouldn't really be 944s anymore - would need very slim wheels, extreme lightening and impossibly stiff shocks, all in the hope to reduce grip during the lightest weight transfers.
 
I think your confusing what I want to try with a drift car, which isn't really what I want.. I don't want something which will break traction on cornering just because the throttle is snapped open, like a muscle car.. That's not what I want to achieve.
 
Jeepers some of the stuff in this thread is the exact opposite of my experience. The 944's the most controllable rwd car I've ever driven, the back comes out gradually and controllable in any situation under braking/power/inertia/traction loss. It also gives you loads of warning and has a large margin for error in corrections.

It would be perfect to learn such track tom-foolery in my opinion, also std power is more than enough to promote over steer if driven correctly.

That's just my 2p though :)

Dunc.
 
Exactly Dunc.. And do you find that this is one of the more fun aspects of the car? part of its character?
 
My coupe is not the ultimate - some way off, but lots of fun and the rear could be popped out at will in the lower gears on big roundabouts etc.

My lux always felt under powered (or maybe overweight) in comparison - well so capable it wasn't 'lively' which led to me buying the turbo in the first place. The turbo felt the same when I first had it - more power but more capable.

The turbo with 320+ BHP is lively enough, I have fairly low spec suspension, stiffer ARBs, slightly lowered, slightly uprated dampers and front springs - I have spun the coupe on track (usually trail braking or being too aggressive with the power in the wet) but never on the road where if find it easy to control. It is fast enough to get into big trouble given the ever lowering speed limits, but I still enjoy it at low speeds.

Tony

ps
My brother had an AE86 toyota that was very entertaining even at low speeds, I remember travelling around the newquay one way system for about 100m very sideways at a max of about 25mph
 

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

Exactly Dunc.. And do you find that this is one of the more fun aspects of the car? part of its character?

I always go for RWD so there's usually some fun but the fun is more accessible than any other std car I've had in the 944, if anything I'd prefer not to have the turbo version as I'm a big NA fan (especially for 10/10th's stuff).

I can't see a flaw in lower powered track fun, the fact is if you're at the limits of grip an additional 1bhp would be enough to transition into oversteer. Surely track favourites such as elises/lotus 7's etc prove this formula, they've got more grip than 944's but even less power and manage fine :)

There's more satisfaction to be had from this sort of driving than planting the foot with big bhp for power oversteer (although this certainly has its place [:D] ) in my opinion.

Dunc.
 
ORIGINAL: Indi9xx
I think your confusing what I want to try with a drift car, which isn't really what I want.. I don't want something which will break traction on cornering just because the throttle is snapped open, like a muscle car.. That's not what I want to achieve.

Well, I have read your posts again and it seems to me you just want a fully standard 944.
 
TTM... Yes... and no..

There are two thought processes here..

The first, is that for smaller tracks, and road based fun, a 944, 2.5 8v non turbo car, could be improved upon and not in the way that most people would go for, which leaves them asking for more power, but in a way which would make them feel more performance and increase how enjoyable the car is to drive... Instead of the traditional mods of wider tyres, the best suspension and a geometry setup tuned for ultimate grip at the expense of progressiveness, a 944 (resisting to say lux) owner could reduce weight, stick to standard 7J wheels, or even perhaps go down to 6J and have a geometry setup (alignment) which is forgiving and progressive, and result in a car which would be more fun to drive in the real world than going for the "impressive" mods which most people ask for.

The second though process, which I just wanted to provoke people into giving some thought about, is, when you guys have some spare shillings in the bank, and go looking for modifications, are the mods that they go looking for, really the right ones for improving the enjoyability of the car, or are they the ones which everyone goes for which seem like a good idea... Wider wheels and track tyres might make the car faster around a corner, bigger brakes might allow them to brake later, KW suspension might improve their stability and road holding, but is a car which is faster around a corner more fun?

It's not ever going to be everyones "bag", but for some, it might be enough of a spark of an idea, to make them think twice about going for traditional peak power and cornering mods, but make them think a bit more about what they enjoy about their 944, 944S, 944S2, 944Turbo and how it can be enjoyed more, rather than how it can look more impressive on a track day.

I get a lot of enquiries for tuning Porsche cars, and to be honest, if I was to give them exactly what they ask for, they would all end up with peak power levels which would look great on a dyno day, but would not be what they want.

A good example would be the old dyno days for Rick Cannells Dyno league... There were two 2.5 turbo's which peaked just over 400 BHP, but with low 300's in torque.. Very few people would have argued that the 320 BHP and 380 torque tuning packages would have actually been faster cars on the road or track...

In the past, I have always talked to tuning customers that have asked for XXX BHP, what kind of driving they do and 9 times out of 10 have told them they want less BHP and more torque, which will result into a faster car, for them.. However, now I think I need to ask them some more questions about fun versus lap times, and I think maybe some people might be well placed to ask themselves the same questions.

Not preaching, just suggesting that with a little thinking outside of the box, rather than following the pack, might give more value for money..., Others may still come to the conclusion that they need a turbo, KW, 11J rear wheels, pilot cups and a MAF kit.. But some may see a new path which might lead to a car more tailored for them.

Some might feel threatened or enraged by this because their path has already been chosen or they enjoy seeing the envelope pushed by forum members.. But maybe, a 944 2.5 non turbo owner might just stop lusting after the crowd with their tuned up turbo's that they might not be able to afford, and buy himself a set of set of 6J Cookie cutters off ebay and have a play or even just find their own path.

And before anyone says that a 944 wearing 6J wheels are dangerous, the 924 turbo had far more power than a 944 non turbo 2.5 and ran on 6J wheels from the factory and they were never widow makers. As did the 924S... If anything, it might even be safer in poor weather than the carlos fandango extra wide wheels that some lust after.

 
I completely adhere to what you are describing.
I'm sticking to 16" wheels with my 944T and have set my KW V3 relatively soft (too soft for some others who have driven the car) precisely because it allows me to enjoy a really lively handling without having to reach silly speeds. With that said I'm afraid you may still have to size down standard chassis components on a 944 Lux in order to achieve a similar chassis/engine balance (or lack of) without increasing engine power, to a point the car would be more than unsafe. I will be more than happy to be proven wrong though!
 
I recall hearing of a second or third to market hot-hatch manufacturer (remembering that the original GTI was the result of engineers enjoying themselves with a parts-bin special... kind of what Jon is proposing, anyway, I digress)... The marketing men went to the engineers saying "it doesn't feel powerful enough"... so they tweaked the engine, gave it more power, and sent it back to the marketing team... "yes it is better, but it still needs more power..." So back to the engineers, tweak it here, tweak it there, a whole bunch more power, and back to marketing to try it out. They drove it, and came back and said "Yes, it is good, but it still doesn't feel powerful enough"... So back to the engineers for a third time... who had run out of ideas to get any more power out of the engine, so they went to the trimmers and had softer foam put into the seats. Back to the marketing guys... "Wow! What have you done? That is brilliant!"... Urban myth or truth, I don't know... but it is a tale I remember.
 
One other point. Often the cheapest, safest and most reliable way to improve track day enjoyment and lap times isn't to do anything to the car, but have driver training. [8|]
 
Absolutely Paul,

I think it may be worth you getting in touch with Don Palmer and seeing if he can put together a package where a group of people in the club can get a day of his time, including exclusive use of Anglesea or one of the other tracks (or doomsday ex nuclear bomber runways) he uses and work out how much it would cost, as he is one of the track tutors I know of who really does like the transaxle Porsche models and had/has a 968 CS himself.

But there are probably others as well.

I know at the Blyton Park TIPEC track day earlier this year, two track tutors were included in the days package so everyone could get one or two 15 min sessions with a tutor on one to one, and I seriously enjoyed a bit of criticism and tuning of my driving on the track which gave me things to play with for the rest of the day.

 
Slightly different but interesting all the same (especially the summary at 6mins on):-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPh90yNX-mY

I also see that a fellow 944 drive has responded below :)

Dunc.
 

ORIGINAL: dunc

Slightly different but interesting all the same (especially the summary at 6mins on):-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPh90yNX-mY

I also see that a fellow 944 drive has responded below :)

Dunc.

Ah-ha! Looks like at least Chris Harris "gets" what I am coming from!
 
Unfortunately fun and irresponsible often go hand in hand... Otherwise Porsche would have gone bust years ago and we would all now be buzzing around in Sinclair C5's [:D]
 
Unfortunately fun and irresponsible often go hand in hand

I think that's the whole point here. You'd need to be driving at "irresponsible" speeds to be having any fun at all in most cars on UK roads: it's the cut-off point where you can enjoy a car safely and still have a laugh that's most important, and that's reducing with more enforcement and the general public opinion about speed.

Given that 30 is becoming something to be aspiring to, rather than a minimum, on many roads, that C63 on spacesavers does make more sense than you'd think at first....
 

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