For fun, not bar bragging, lap times, but fun..

[MarkK]

Hiya John []
My red turbo was one of the 400 bhp cars you mention...on the dyno day they were having issues with traction on that dyno,on Another well regarded dyno which was used until recently by many of us racing in the PCGB championship it reached higher figures hp and torque.
It is very drivable on road and in trackday settings and I have been side by side with tuned M3s on long drags in Germany and crept away,also on track days fully laden with its air con,leather seats It shows a clean set of heels to quite a lot of newer "flashier" machinery all on 16inch road rubber which is a lot of fun as it can move about and break traction.
I would agree that it is a bit laggy with its larger turbo but there is a definite technique to keeping it on the boil and this in itself is quite fun,
It's a really well developed road car,it goes,handles( KWV3s) and stops(uprated calipers running pagid RS29s) in a really rounded package and has a playful character all it's own,it's really special to me and took some thought to get just right.Its also great for long hauls (if a little loud with its pops and chirrups).
The fun is definitely there,albeit a bit different to what I think you are getting at.It has been reliable as a Swiss watch touch wood and all I have done in past few years is service her and experiment with wheel colours,she is currently sporting Gold CS wheels,another set is being re-done right now in a high gloss black painted finish[]
Just thought I would chip in as the car was mentioned.!

 

[George Elliott]

See what Neil nicely explained

Thanks lads, yes I understand.



Jon, interesting thread, some good points. Perhaps we should bring back cross plies []

My old 6v Beetle had them - about 4.5 inch rims (no hubcaps) MOT failure in 1981 bought for £50 for the Yard. Lasted 6 months when a roll saw it loose oil before we righted it and then we spun the big ends. Old rwd family saloons were good on the stubble at local farms, Mk3 Cortinas, Fiat 124 Special T....[][][]
It was fun but we were always out of petrol[8|]

George
944t

 

[amrbose14]

This is an interesting thread! I don't think the power to break traction at will is what makes a good car... Or the habit of randomly losing traction at either end. It's adjustability on the limit, and responding positively to care over things like weight management during driving. Jon's vision might well achieve that, I think. My 944 is one of the most forgiving cars I have owned, rewards good driving but thank god doesn't punish mistakes too severely, despite the turbo.

Anyway, I reckon it's time for Jon to build his 944 now! Nuff talk! Then give track driver magazine a call and see what they make of it?

Chris

 

[steve 944t]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

One other point. Often the cheapest, safest and most reliable way to improve track day enjoyment and lap times isn't to do anything to the car, but have driver training. [8|]

Absolutely right. I have spent a fair bit on my Turbo over the years. It's not one of the fastest on here but does have the usual mods - KW, level 2 kit, lots of upgraded mounts/bushes etc. it's a great car and the mods have certainly improved it.

But, the single best mod I have ever done was spending a day this year with Don Palmer at Bruntingthorpe. The entire day was spent focussing on my steering technique. Tiny adjustments to technique here and there. I wasn't totally hamfisted to begin with (hopefully[]) but when everything started to come together after a few hours the difference in response from the car was astonishing. From now on my money will be spent on modifications to the driver, not the car []

 

[Mike_Pollock]

Having had a 2.7 (with its quite hefty ARB} on 6x15 924 Turbo rims, I found it a horrible combination!

The tyres, 195/70s I think just couldn't keep up with steering. Felt like the side walls were twisting excessively.

Lower profiles may help, and give lower gearing but would look a little odd, so you would have to drop it on the springs.

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: amrbose14
This is an interesting thread! I don't think the power to break traction at will is what makes a good car... Or the habit of randomly losing traction at either end. It's adjustability on the limit, and responding positively to care over things like weight management during driving.

The point I'm trying to make is not about randomly losing traction, but about breaking traction at will to start a slide that should be well manageable if the chassis has been set up correctly. 944s have handling limits far enough so that the average driver may not react accordingly once he/she passes these limits, as the car can get really snappy when the rear end slides past the slip angle Neil described.
I do believe that with a 944 there is more fun and tricks to be learned by trying to control a slide at moderate to slow speeds than by trying to reach the limits of the chassis that are normally reachable at "dangerous" speeds, at least in the dry.

 

[Indi9xx]

ORIGINAL: MarkK
Just thought I would chip in as the car was mentioned.!

Hi Mr K!

Its great to hear that you still have and are continuing to enjoy that beast!

So many of the people from back in the dyno-days back then have moved on and their cars vanished into the darkness, which is a real shame. So it is good to hear you are still around, your car is still around, and that it is still repaying the investment you made in the car by providing smiles for you

Sad that on the day you were having traction issues, I had no idea.

Maybe next year we should all make an effort to arrange a dynoday, but not just invite the current faces, but make an effort to invite along some of the old people, even if they no longer have a 944, just so we can all have a catch up, as I am sure they would enjoy coming along, but would not know it is happening unless someone got in touch with them.

 

[Indi9xx]

ORIGINAL: TTM
The point I'm trying to make is not about randomly losing traction, but about breaking traction at will to start a slide that should be well manageable if the chassis has been set up correctly. 944s have handling limits far enough so that the average driver may not react accordingly once he/she passes these limits, as the car can get really snappy when the rear end slides past the slip angle Neil described.
I do believe that with a 944 there is more fun and tricks to be learned by trying to control a slide at moderate to slow speeds than by trying to reach the limits of the chassis that are normally reachable at "dangerous" speeds, at least in the dry.

Now that IS what I am talking about.. I don't know how achievable it is, but I do want to try and build a car, which as I said before is a bit like a handling track trainer, so the limit can be played with, in a forgiving car, without the speed needing to be 100mph or the power levels being in turbo territory.

My plan would be to try to play with as many variables as possible, including geometry (alignment), Tyre width, suspension stiffness (damping), torsional stiffness (anti roll bars) and weight distribution (or rather mass redistribution) to see if this can be achieved with a 2.5 8v non turbo engine... If not, then a S2 engine would be installed, but I would hope I could reach the goals of building a car, which at lower speeds, can break traction, not in a spectacular way (Big sideways drift in the dry), but in a way that is as smooth, progressive and forgiving as possible.

One thing that is evident from this thread, is that some people already feel they have this, and some people feel they have the opposite..

In theory, if you reduce the friction (narrower tyre and/or less mass acting on it), you also will reduce the amount of force required to break that traction, either rotationally (by power) or sideways by the force of the turn.

That turning force, if the car has light anti roll bars, or soft suspension, mitigated by suspension ride height, can initially be stored in the suspension, which is released once the tyre breaks traction making the loss of grip in those first moments more dramatic and less predictable.

Mike/9XXC made a really valid point which is part of the plan, which is through lowering sidewall height you get a double wammy, less sidewall flex, but also lower gearing, which would improve the accelloration of the car, but reduce its maximum velocity, But also with a slight added benefit of less mass in the tyre (possibly marginal), but more importantly the mass in the tyre being closer to its pivot, which reduces the effort required to turn it even with the same mass)

In theory, all these small, and inexpensive changes, should change the characteristics of the car towards a goal of it reaching its limit earlier in speed, but importantly with less energy/force.

I don't want to build a drift car, or even a awful car, but build something which is fun on the roads or handling circuits.. Its all a bit experimental, as I don't think many people have ever put in the effort in this direction, however, I do think that a car which has lower and more predictable limits may even be faster on a handling track, as a less experienced driver would be happier to push the car to those limits, rather than shying away from them.

Just a thought that is completely out of the usual box, but one that I thought was worth exploring, which is why in the first post, I made it clear that many people on first impression would think I was being completely potty.

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: TTM

ORIGINAL: amrbose14
This is an interesting thread! I don't think the power to break traction at will is what makes a good car... Or the habit of randomly losing traction at either end. It's adjustability on the limit, and responding positively to care over things like weight management during driving.

The point I'm trying to make is not about randomly losing traction, but about breaking traction at will to start a slide that should be well manageable if the chassis has been set up correctly. 944s have handling limits far enough so that the average driver may not react accordingly once he/she passes these limits, as the car can get really snappy when the rear end slides past the slip angle Neil described.
I do believe that with a 944 there is more fun and tricks to be learned by trying to control a slide at moderate to slow speeds than by trying to reach the limits of the chassis that are normally reachable at "dangerous" speeds, at least in the dry.

I think even more than that its a relative question about what we mean by a slide, to many its driving through a corner with less steering lock on than normal or much less than when battling heavy understeer. This is an important point to make I feel as it colours the opinions people give when talking about the cars handling. As an example I can drive our 1.2 Panda through corners with less steering angle than normal by turning in aggressively and trail braking, it almost certainly doesn't have enough power though to pull its arse through a corner on opposite lock.

 

[Indi9xx]

ORIGINAL: amrbose14
Anyway, I reckon it's time for Jon to build his 944 now! Nuff talk! Then give track driver magazine a call and see what they make of it?

Already have the car selected Chris, its a very poorly 84 car, with rust issues in the sills.. Only reason I have kept it for the last 7 years is because it has a cool number plate (A944FRU) which I had been meaning to MOT and get off it.

Its a shame that I got rid of pretty much all my cookie cutters years ago, I used to get lots of the 6J and 7J ones when swapping SC's and 944's onto nicer wheels, but before their value shot up, I used to pretty much see them as scrap aluminium!

 

[MarkK]

Track day !Not a Dyno day!
Wish I could have made that Bedford day this year[]