GT 3 Production run likely to be extended
- Thread starter bobfair
- Start date
Nick that could be difficult as the view is I am lucky to get one at all given the lateness of my application.
Have you been to Ice Force S as I am tempted for this January. If so is the venue any good as it is different again at Levi/Kittila (Restaurant Okta serves reindeer, bear, fish and other Lapland specialities!!). This would be my third venue in Finland. I have done Ice Force twice and loved every second. Drifting a 991 GT 3 back to back with a 991 Turbo S is very tempting.
By the way guys does the S in Turbo S stand for a bit "Slow" round the twisty bits hence the need for all those stabilising rollbars/software thingys
Have you been to Ice Force S as I am tempted for this January. If so is the venue any good as it is different again at Levi/Kittila (Restaurant Okta serves reindeer, bear, fish and other Lapland specialities!!). This would be my third venue in Finland. I have done Ice Force twice and loved every second. Drifting a 991 GT 3 back to back with a 991 Turbo S is very tempting.
By the way guys does the S in Turbo S stand for a bit "Slow" round the twisty bits hence the need for all those stabilising rollbars/software thingys
Doesn't the 991 GT3 have PTV+ and rear wheel steer too as standard? Having had a go in the 991 Turbo S, slow around the twisty bits was not the impression I was left with! Horses for courses. Nearing a round trip to Spain I know which car I would prefer to do the journey in. However, if I spent my time haring up and down mountain passes or around race circuits then it would be the other one
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Only teasing you guys ( I was expecting Tom as well) but there is a valid point in there. At what point does the technology become too much so all the fun/challenge in driving is removed? I loved my last GT 3 because to drive it well was a real challenge
The 991 Turbo S has Porsche Dynamic Chasis Control so the balancing/weight distribution of the car is effectively taken away from the driver. The technology is there for the car to take care of the steering as well so how long will it be before I go to the ring download what lap time I would like and let the car do the rest? One of the reasons I waited to order a 991 GT 3 was to read the reviews to ensure the driving fun hadn't been removed altogether. I know this debate has been raging for a long time but the rate of change does seem to be accelerating. Perhaps one of the reasons older cars are becoming so valuable is this very concern. I guess the point along the spectrum (Air cooled, PSM, Manual, Mezger etc) is simply down to personal choice but for me the time is coming where I will say might just as well drive the E Class but still time for a few more miles in the GT 3 before I get there
The 991 Turbo S has Porsche Dynamic Chasis Control so the balancing/weight distribution of the car is effectively taken away from the driver. The technology is there for the car to take care of the steering as well so how long will it be before I go to the ring download what lap time I would like and let the car do the rest? One of the reasons I waited to order a 991 GT 3 was to read the reviews to ensure the driving fun hadn't been removed altogether. I know this debate has been raging for a long time but the rate of change does seem to be accelerating. Perhaps one of the reasons older cars are becoming so valuable is this very concern. I guess the point along the spectrum (Air cooled, PSM, Manual, Mezger etc) is simply down to personal choice but for me the time is coming where I will say might just as well drive the E Class but still time for a few more miles in the GT 3 before I get there
Bob, I like my GT3' too.... But I also like rocket ship performance from a Turbo. In the 991 Turbo S, S is for "scared..... you will be....you will be..." said in Yoda like voice. Fast I not the word Space and time warping could also be another meaning for the TTS
The 991 TTS is as fast around the ring as a GT3.......
If anything I found the 991 TTS more playful,fun and interactive than the 997 TTS once the sport button was on..........having said that, that was on roads know at "mini me" Clive velocities
Recent video shows 991 TTS breaking 333km/h on the Autobhan in warm weather (that's 207mph in old money)......
Tom I do agree but the Turbo achieves the lap time by being very fast down the straights and a bit slower (relatively speaking) around the twisty bits hence my cheeky question above. The GT 3 is the opposite and for me the twisty bits are the fun bits. The acceleration and speed with a Turbo is mightily impressive and I will certainly never forget my first flat out launch in a Turbo ( I actually backed off as I could not believe what was happening and yes was a little bit overawed) . If any of you on this forum have never experienced a Turbo launch then I strongly suggest you add that to your bucket list.
Porsche have added PDCC as standard to the Turbo S but I would have preferred it as an option (but I would also like to chose my tyres on my new car and I cant have that either)
When I compared my 997 Turbo to my 997 GT 3 an easy summary was the Turbo was the better road car and the GT 3 a more challenging drive, less comfortable but better on track. I am really looking forward to making that comparison with the 991 as the GT 3 band width seems to have been widened without loosing the driver appeal
Bob
What has changed on 991' is the GT3 has got much faster on the straight and the Turbo S much faster through the corners...........The GT3 I lighter and ultimately more agile but the extra toys make the TTS much more adjustable in corners and on a track you can be a drift king or tail out hooligan.
The vehicle till keep their character but the capabilities overlap more than ever before - the GT3 is brutally fast on track and much much better on the road. The TTS is a supercar that can annihilate challenging tracks like no road car should and then cruise across a continent in significant comfort. The GT3 till feel like a racer the TT feels like a road supercar
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Yes that is correct Clive I would have deleted it were it an option and I were buying a Turbo S. When I was trying to decide what car to go for next I did look at getting a standard Turbo (not S) as PDCC is optional on that model but after a few other options such as PCCB it was almost as expensive as an S without the additional BHP/torque and I was worried it would be hammered at resale time. On total ownership cost grounds the S seems to make more sense.
So why the dislike of Dynamic Chassis Control?
I have taken all of my cars on track including the Turbo which did quite a few days. With the Turbo the weight was very noticeable and during heavy braking you could really feel that weight transfer and lateral movement as the car was set up to be quite soft. With the GT 3 it was much less so as the car was set up to be a lot stiffer and flatter. I tried hard to learn how to drive the GT 3 properly. One of the joys of a Clubsport car is that you can use the harnesses to really tie you in hard so you feel at one with the car. I used to switch off all the stability control systems and try to develop a real feel for what the car was doing as you approached its cornering limit and really understand the weight transfer and how to minimise it or use it to your advantage. I am sure that is something you did instinctively during your rallying days but I had to work at it and its something they make a great play off if you go ice driving with Porsche. For example they encourage you to left foot brake to minimise understeer by getting more weight onto the front wheels and help get into oversteer for the drift as the rear end becomes lighter.
Dynamic Chassis Control is designed as an active anti roll system that supresses lateral movement and body roll in corners. Having spent quite a lot of time and effort trying to learn how to use that movement on track, ice and the road I am reluctant to go for a car that supresses that movement and hides what is really happening. To me that makes sense as it is part of the fun of driving the car.
No doubt Porsche have made it standard as the Turbo S is a very quick car down the straights and PDCC makes it quicker in the corners without the driver realising what is going on as the car stays flat and doesn't roll. Very efficient and effective but for me less fun
So why the dislike of Dynamic Chassis Control?
I have taken all of my cars on track including the Turbo which did quite a few days. With the Turbo the weight was very noticeable and during heavy braking you could really feel that weight transfer and lateral movement as the car was set up to be quite soft. With the GT 3 it was much less so as the car was set up to be a lot stiffer and flatter. I tried hard to learn how to drive the GT 3 properly. One of the joys of a Clubsport car is that you can use the harnesses to really tie you in hard so you feel at one with the car. I used to switch off all the stability control systems and try to develop a real feel for what the car was doing as you approached its cornering limit and really understand the weight transfer and how to minimise it or use it to your advantage. I am sure that is something you did instinctively during your rallying days but I had to work at it and its something they make a great play off if you go ice driving with Porsche. For example they encourage you to left foot brake to minimise understeer by getting more weight onto the front wheels and help get into oversteer for the drift as the rear end becomes lighter.
Dynamic Chassis Control is designed as an active anti roll system that supresses lateral movement and body roll in corners. Having spent quite a lot of time and effort trying to learn how to use that movement on track, ice and the road I am reluctant to go for a car that supresses that movement and hides what is really happening. To me that makes sense as it is part of the fun of driving the car.
No doubt Porsche have made it standard as the Turbo S is a very quick car down the straights and PDCC makes it quicker in the corners without the driver realising what is going on as the car stays flat and doesn't roll. Very efficient and effective but for me less fun
Hi Bob,
That's interesting and thanks for your thoughts.
Stiff antiroll bars are needed in hard cornering to keep all wheels firmly on the ground, but these do very little on straight pieces of road other than to restrict suspension articulation and adversely affect ride quality and traction. Antiroll bar stiffness is therefore a compromise on most cars.
GT3 is set up stiffly to avoid body roll in hard cornering and although some adjustment is available, it is not easy involving time underneath the car with a set of spanners to alter the length of the bars. But Porsche believe owners of GT3's are prepared to put up with this and some of the hardships in the interests of great cornering ability.
PDCC attempts to overcome the compromise by having dynamically adjustable antiroll bar stiffness that provides comfort and traction on straights then optimises body roll stiffness through the corners.
The penalty, of course, is weight since adjustments require the use of hydraulic actuators and all its associated kit. This would be problem in GT3 -a focussed, motorsport-based model - but it is not so much so in Turbo S with its huge levels of extra grunt.
IMHO there's nothing not to like about PDCC and Turbo 'S' would probably be a lot poorer model without it. []
Kind regards,
Clive.
That's interesting and thanks for your thoughts.
Stiff antiroll bars are needed in hard cornering to keep all wheels firmly on the ground, but these do very little on straight pieces of road other than to restrict suspension articulation and adversely affect ride quality and traction. Antiroll bar stiffness is therefore a compromise on most cars.
GT3 is set up stiffly to avoid body roll in hard cornering and although some adjustment is available, it is not easy involving time underneath the car with a set of spanners to alter the length of the bars. But Porsche believe owners of GT3's are prepared to put up with this and some of the hardships in the interests of great cornering ability.
PDCC attempts to overcome the compromise by having dynamically adjustable antiroll bar stiffness that provides comfort and traction on straights then optimises body roll stiffness through the corners.
The penalty, of course, is weight since adjustments require the use of hydraulic actuators and all its associated kit. This would be problem in GT3 -a focussed, motorsport-based model - but it is not so much so in Turbo S with its huge levels of extra grunt.
IMHO there's nothing not to like about PDCC and Turbo 'S' would probably be a lot poorer model without it. [
]Kind regards,
Clive.
Unless I am mistaken it is only the Turbo S that has PDCC as standard so there are lots of 991's out there without it. The standard Turbo has RWD and PTV but no PDCC so I would disagree with you Alan.
Like most people on this part of the forum I buy new cars so I think the debate should be how much flexibility can we have in the specification so we get the car we would like. When I had my Turbo I used to moan that Porsche wouldn't sell me a sports exhaust so I ended up at DMS. If I recall Alec ended up at Cargraphic for much the same reason.
By and large I like technology. For example by utilising new technology they have made the new GT 3 more comfortable and more useable without spoiling its driving character. As buyers of new cars shouldnt we have a strong say in what comes next. For example cars have generally got larger and heavier a trend I would like to see reversed.
I have never driven a 964 RS but from what I read they are pretty uncomfortable on the road so I suspect I would prefer the 991 GT 3
Like most people on this part of the forum I buy new cars so I think the debate should be how much flexibility can we have in the specification so we get the car we would like. When I had my Turbo I used to moan that Porsche wouldn't sell me a sports exhaust so I ended up at DMS. If I recall Alec ended up at Cargraphic for much the same reason.
By and large I like technology. For example by utilising new technology they have made the new GT 3 more comfortable and more useable without spoiling its driving character. As buyers of new cars shouldnt we have a strong say in what comes next. For example cars have generally got larger and heavier a trend I would like to see reversed.
I have never driven a 964 RS but from what I read they are pretty uncomfortable on the road so I suspect I would prefer the 991 GT 3
I thought we were talking about 991 turbo/S and GT3, not all the other 991s? My point was that as the Turbo and GT3 both have rear wheel steer (RWD is a different thing, I think!) and PTV, talking about not having PDCC because it puts you more in touch with the car, when there is now so much computerised intervention that you can't turn off, seems pointless.
Then there are the other 99% of owners who haven't taken the time and trouble to learn what you have, Bob, who need all the help they can get to control 560 horses.[
]I was joking about the 964.........[
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Sorry Clive our posts crossed in the ether.
I think I am right in saying that PDCC controls not only the movement of the car from side to side but also the movement/weight transfer backwards and forwards as you brake or accelerate. The intention is to keep the car as level as possible thereby improving grip and available cornering speed. I note on other forums that users of PDCC are saying their tyre wear is significantly improved with PDCC and this would make sense as the tyre stays flatter all the time.
I once went round SPA in my Turbo with Mike Wilds driving and as I was just amazed at how level he could keep the car whilst going much faster than me. I am not suggesting that I have succeeded but in my GT 3 I was trying to achieve that which is why I would rather not have the car do it for me
I think I am right in saying that PDCC controls not only the movement of the car from side to side but also the movement/weight transfer backwards and forwards as you brake or accelerate. The intention is to keep the car as level as possible thereby improving grip and available cornering speed. I note on other forums that users of PDCC are saying their tyre wear is significantly improved with PDCC and this would make sense as the tyre stays flatter all the time.
I once went round SPA in my Turbo with Mike Wilds driving and as I was just amazed at how level he could keep the car whilst going much faster than me. I am not suggesting that I have succeeded but in my GT 3 I was trying to achieve that which is why I would rather not have the car do it for me
Hmm.. not sure about that Bob. All the blurb I've read, and just re-read, only talks about lateral forces/controlling body roll and not longitudinal ones? I can't see how you can stop the weight transfer fore and aft, that's just physics at play. The PDCC may help to prevent some of the nose up/nose down under acceleration/braking, but looking at some launch control videos, I'm not sure it does.
Bob,
You're absolutely right, pitch and yaw sensors already work to adjust the front and rear drive trains in Turbo S, so it makes sense to integrate the active anti-roll strategy into the equation.
But, as I have previously said, however much you try you can't overcome the laws of physics and whether you're pushing from the back in a GT3 or pushing from the back and pulling from the front a la Turbo S, you can't get over the fact the weight is fundamentally in the wrong place and it is all down to the skill of the driver to deal with this.
Development has transformed the way the 911 drives and is a far leap from my first one, a 911 SC, many, many moons ago. Without development, I think we would have seen the demise of the 911 a long time ago.
Kind regards,
Clive.
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