Is it me or are there a lot of 991.1 and 991.2 GT3’s For Sale

[Jdhughes01]

This on YouTube may be of interest to avid readers, succinctly put I think!

"The truth about buying Porsche GT cars that everyone knows, but is afraid to say.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=2s&v=RJ739X8SSCk

 

[PJ63]

Just a quick foot note to all the above to which I let everyone make their own mind up as to what it tells you.

When I was at an event recently I got talking to a chap that was lucky enough to buy a 991.2 GT3 from new & then when the 991.2 GT3RS was released he got a phone call from the dealer offering him one, but under the condition that he sold them back his GT3. Ummm food for thought!!!!

 

[geoff lane]

Just a quick foot note to all the above to which I let everyone make their own mind up as to what it tells you.

When I was at an event recently I got talking to a chap that was lucky enough to buy a 991.2 GT3 from new & then when the 991.2 GT3RS was released he got a phone call from the dealer offering him one, but under the condition that he sold them back his GT3. Ummm food for thought!!!!

Just confirms what I said earlier.

 

[Geoff_Fields]

Other companies are applying legal contracts enforcing keeping for at least 2 years to buyers of "limited" run cars so why can't Porsche?
Mercedes with their new F1 Hypercar, Ford with the GT, Aston Martin with the Valkari etc. If Porsche did do it I bet all those "special" customers would suddenly disappear.

 

[geoff lane]

Ex Bobfair 1st Aug.
( Just by way of example my local OPC has a 2018 GT3 for sale with just 400 miles on the clock for £204k despite the fact they assure me they only sell these cars to loyal customers who want to use them. )


But Bob it is a Touring and commands a premium, they had to take the wing off

 

[bobfair]

Chris
It was good to talk to you at Goodwood FOS. Once again well done for what you have achieved at the club. The current membership levels speak for themselves

It seems to me that problems with the allocation are just one of the symptoms. The actual cause of the problem, that Porsche GB needs to address, is that demand exceeds supply. The problem wont go away until the two are more in balance because these are highly desirable cars. Porsche has also made it worse by constantly marketing cars we cant buy and then refusing to make an adequate supply. The most recent example of this is Porsche sending me several E Mails inviting me to take up the challenge of the GT3 RS. Unfortunately Porsche has allowed an almost hysterical market to build up and in my view the market will soon correct itself with a sharp price correction . 50 GT 3's over list is just not a sustainable situation and makes no sense

 

[mphillips]

I also have heard that GT car allocation is down to the OPC's and if you put in a LOT with your salesman and don't get an allocation then the standard salesman answer is that allocations are down to the Dealer Principal which again I think is true due to the limited allocations. Dealer Principals have an impossible task where limited volume GT cars are concerned, they have very good customers who buy a number of cars per year and I'm told this can be up to 50 cars. No business can afford to loose this type of customer…

Good post Geoff, and from what I've learned by talking to my OPC your whole summary was much the same as I heard too.

The thing I find so distasteful about this whole scenario is the 'old boys network' feel to it. That way of working seems rather anachronistic today. Even Savile Row caught up with the times and stopped only taking customers by recommendation of other customers. Michelin starred restaurants have lifted their game and recognised that the younger generation will save and visit a top restaurant like they'd take a holiday.

When I bought my 911 I very nearly binned the whole idea as when I finally got a build slot I was told the price had gone up – and that was mine to cover. Really, what?! In what world does a deposit not fix the pricing. It struck me as a terribly arrogant attitude which has left a continuing bad taste in my mouth. Of course, I've perpetuated that arrogance by giving in and buying the [make no doubt about it, excellent] product! Sigh. But it doesn't have to be like this. Porsche could do something about it. It could be mandated to dealers that 'first come, first served' is the way GT sales happen – no sitting around a room deciding who your mates are to get a car.

It's hardly the same thing, but you'll get my point – when Apple brings out a new phone people queue around the block to buy them. When they're all sold out, they're gone. Staff will even kindly walk the queue and cut off where they know stock will be gone – people can at least go home then

If one is prepared to put a 10k deposit down for a car and wait a couple of years (or more) for it to appear, that's a buyers prerogative, and I wouldn't have a problem with that if it got me a place in a queue and I kept that place. I don't think you'd lose top customers who bought '50 cars in a year' if it was fair and transparent from the outset – they could afford to put the deposit down for the queue place anyway.

There's a reality to things which I'm not acknowledging with this post, but am cognisant of. I just think that reality is a shame. The delight we all (mostly) get from the brand and its products could be amplified without the current way of working when it comes to GT lines.

Anyone want to flog me their GT3+Touring for list?

 

[Porker911gts]

Have to say I like the fact AMG are at least trying to address the problem by including a minimum 2yr hold in the agreements to avoid flipping on theor new supercar, even if this isn’t enforced it would be good to see Porsche make at least some effort.

 

[AB2012]

What is obvious when you look at the average mileage and age of the cars currently for sale, is that they are are not being driven by enthusiasts who enjoy their cars....

 

[JohnCRS]

I love driving my Porsche but refuse to pay a premium as mileage then erodes it. I hate it when Porsche marketing, magasines, road testers etc. describe a car costing, say, £130k which you cannot buy for less than £200. For an enthusiast the situation is tough. Unfortunately we are in a weak position in the current market. We all say that we are there to enjoy our cars and not to make money. There are two other stronger groups where profit is the main objective.

1 The ‘Flippers’ able to buy at list and sell at a profit in a cycle that must involve Porsche GB. Cars have been advertised on the approved lists with circa 1000 miles having 4 owners as the cycle turns. Very market dependent and most vulnerable if it all goes pear shaped.

2 The investor / collector with more medium term objective. They seem to make the market at the top end, paying the higher prices that are talked about, but their influence is actually not so great economically.

I can’t bring myself to castigate Porsche GB for making money where they can. They also carry the biggest risk of a market collapse - credit crunch anyone, as well over 90% are financed. Their stockholding is supporting the price. (I heard from one source that dealers are ‘encouraged‘ to buy back cars they have sold, which then turn up in the independent premium market) They have the biggest investment in infrastructure Etc. to support, from which we benefit.

So, more cars I would like to own move into the unobtainable strata for the time being. They join plenty of other things in that space, houses, holidays, pensions, peace and quiet. We can vote with our feet and spend our money wisely on the driving enjoyment we seek. For me that is still a Porsche, but as McLaren prices fall I realise that brand loyalty is a fickle thing too.

 

[RussellFunnell]

Other companies are applying legal contracts enforcing keeping for at least 2 years to buyers of "limited" run cars so why can't Porsche?
Mercedes with their new F1 Hypercar, Ford with the GT, Aston Martin with the Valkari etc. If Porsche did do it I bet all those "special" customers would suddenly disappear.

Land Rover did that for the special V8 Defender, I think it is a step in the right direction, that or stop strangling the supply of the cars.

 

[MartinRS2K]

I am lucky to have got an allocation for a new 991.2 GT3 Touring and bought the car to drive and enjoy. I agree with a lot of the sentiment posted above but there is one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this post so far.

In Europe there is not the same issue with flipping, but that is mainly due to the RRP price of the car being so much higher than in the UK. The GT3 in the UK is £111,802k before options but in Germany it is 152,416 EUR (£135,806) and the options are priced more expensively so the UK car is underpriced.

Actually the UK car is still being priced at an exchange rate of £1 : €1.36 when the current exchange rate is £1 : €1.12


Discussing contracts, some official Rolex Dealers are now holding onto the paperwork for new steel Ceramic Daytona, steel GMT-Master 2 and the Submariner Steel watches for 12 months to stop these watches being sold at a 50% markup straight away. Waiting lists for them has been 3-5 years, but it seems that like Porsche cars you can quickly find you drop down the list if a 'Good' customer comes in and buys a few of the less desirable watches to overtake you on the list.

 

[findtom.com]

Chris, I too am interested in this topic. I tried to buy a GT3 and was told by OPC Tewkesbury they were only selling GT3s to customers who brought 3/4 cars a year....

I have had 7 911's, 3 of them 991.1s. While I'm not in the 3/4 cars a year league, I think you can understand I was justifiably disappointed.

I too am looking at other manufacturers, (AMV8 for example), but I would rather stay with Porsche when I come back to the UK next year.

 

[pwebb]

My OPC DP told me that the then MD of Porsche GB had said that they didn’t want to dictate who got allocations as in his view it was the OPC’s who ‘knew‘ their customers and should decide.

Of course there are too many people chasing the GT cars, mostly to flip them, and if the supply met demand I guess these buyers would evaporate overnight. This may have already begun to happen with the current GT3.2 as a lot more were built than expected and I doubt the 50plus very low mileage cars currently on sale will find homes at the big sticker prices.

Talking to some other GT3.2 owners there seems to have been a pattern this time around, as the first 2017 allocation went to ‘the usual suspects’ for the well rehearsed business reasons but the subsequent 2018 allocation was more for known enthusiasts. Certainly quite a few Club members have them now on that basis.

I have bought a few cars from my OPC over the last 8 years but not in the quantity to qualify as a serial buyer, and now I’ve got mine (my first GT car) like some others here on the forum have driven several thousand miles, so it’s virtually worthless anyway ??

 

[simojimo]

The one and only thing I dislike about my GT3 (991.1 bought used from an OPC last year) is the feeling of guilt every time I drive it and add mileage knowing it will be killing the value at sale. I'm now at the decision point that either I drive it and stick a shed load of miles on it and take the hit, but enjoy the experience, or sell it and buy something else that I can enjoy 90% as much but don't loose such a significant amount in the long term.

I also find the whole allocation system run by the dealers on an 'Old boys club' mentality out of date with modern thinking, and will help to ruin the brand for loyal customers in the long term and the quicker Porsche UK stop ignoring this issue and do something fairer the better.

 

[mphillips]

It sounds like such a shame that you folks with GT3s are afraid to put miles on them – this again is a dogma in the industry, and us punters to be fair, are sticking to probably without just cause. I thought Porsche engineering was supposed to be 'bomb proof' and tailored for longevity? Why should a few miles on a GT car make it worth less?

Slight tangent … I did the Knockhill track day last month, and there was a chap there with a 911R. It got regularly tracked, and I was lucky enough to have him take me out on a passenger run. He drove that thing properly. It made my day.

Enjoy those lovely engines folks, it seems a total waste to have them sitting quietly.

 

[D911ARK]

It's an interesting read this thread and I can see all sides,new/potential buyers, OPCs, owners and long term, if less 'regular' buyers of Porsche vehicles. No right or wrong depending on what side you're on, but bubbles eventually burst, is what I've found happens in most cases. However, I do find flipping grossly distorts a market and very underhand, in general. When I'm ready to buy my own GT3, I'll put my proper two pence in!

What I did find interesting was a young lad (26, so he's young in my book! ) I met at Beaulie this weekend with an R8 V10, telling me his story of ownership. He built his GT3 on the Porsche configurator and then duly went to the dealer. Upon arrival, he was asked, 'oh, you must be Matt, come and take a seat'. Where he was told he wouldn't be able to buy the car he specced up. He was disappointed as he thought that's what he was going to be able to buy, but felt shot down. He then went and bought his quite fully specced R8 and not looked back. Felt quite put off by the scenario. By his own admission, didn't really have an idea of the 911 market and maybe line-up, just felt let down he was told by the dealer, he couldn't buy what he wanted. Now to me, looking outside in, maybe Porsche feel they have enough demand elsewhere, what's one person walking away? The Account Manager and Sales person in me, feels very let down by it all, as that could have been a long-term customer. Never judge a book and all that (of course, he could have been making it up, but he seemed genuine enough)

But the posts on McLaren in this thread are interesting. My previous company worked with McLaren in various guises (Im not allowed to say to much in my NDA) but a presentation by them once I found very intriguing about the sales of their 'cheaper' cars and brand loyalty. I cant admit to knowing too much about their line up, but their £100-£175k cars were at more risk of sales losses, due to manufacture time as people would go to another dealer and buy say a 911/R8 or equivalent in a much shorter time frame and their biggest competition from rivals came from their 'less expensive' cars. They had brand loyalty for their hyper cars and £300k+ plus range, as people would want a McLaren. The lower end were less fussy, just wanted an expensive super car, now! I appreciate that might not be relevant, so I apologise, but thought worth sharing.

Mark

 

[bobfair]

I watched and enjoyed this video recently:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghfGIq0ddlc

The competition is improving so isn't it about time that Porsche got its head out of the sand and stopped deliberately under supplying the UK market? I suppose it doesn't matter from a corporate point of view if a few Brits get upset with them as the Asian market is far more important.

After a year with my McLaren 720 I find it a truly brilliant car so there is life after Porsche guys. My Cayenne is around 3.5 years old so wanted to replace that but cant get one to my spec from my OPC until around next June and even then they can not tell me what the price or spec will be so with a heavy heart will be going elsewhere. Similar situation with a Macan. Will be the first time in a long time that I have not owned at least one Porsche, sad days

 

[scoot27]

What do you think of the situation a year on ?
£143 for A 3 owner crayon 2.5k on the clock
991.1 gts manual owner mulling the plunge

 

[Porker911gts]

Interest question.

i had my 991.1 GTS for three years and best 911 I’d ever had. Been keeping an eye on 991.2GT3 prices and they have softened a lot so I took the plunge last month and purchased a 1 year old car from Porsche Sheffield with a great spec including carbon brakes, PDK, Bose, Sport Buckets etc.

i Loved my GTS, but the 4 litre GT3 is feral, it develops so much torque and the top end rush at 9k rpm is more akin to my Panigale motorbike, stunning.

I also got a good price for the GTS - give one a try, you won’t be disappointed as it feels so special.