Mobil 1 or Magnatec, that is the question ?

[Andy B Aces High]

Hi Guys,

Looking for advice, as my car is used infrequently (5000 mile per year insurance). Would I be better changing over to Magnatec at my next oil change ? I believe this has better properties for clinging to the engine components and therefore aids less damage on start up, which is, I understand when most engine wear occurs.

Has anyone else made the change and if so what grade (10W/40 etc)

Andy B.

 

[Guards Red]

...er neither? Used to swear by Mobil 1 and would still be using but found it impossible to keep in a 15 year old air cooled engine. It's too thin for older engines and I found the car showed more leaks with it. I didn't want to go to a mineral oil as I still consider my car a "precison tool" so I spent ages looking at the options and decided to go for Silkolene Pro S. This is not only synthetic, but is an "ester" based oil which is as good as it gets apparently. The added advantage of ester based oils is that they have the same clinging properties that oils like Magnatec etc offer. I use 10-50 as a good compromise between cold start performance and being thick enough not to leak all over the place. It's reassuringly expensive too.

 

[AlexG]

Another vote for Pro-S (5W40 though or me - and no leaks).

 

[burrow01]

ORIGINAL: Andy B Aces High

Hi Guys,

Looking for advice, as my car is used infrequently (5000 mile per year insurance). Would I be better changing over to Magnatec at my next oil change ? I believe this has better properties for clinging to the engine components and therefore aids less damage on start up, which is, I understand when most engine wear occurs.

Has anyone else made the change and if so what grade (10W/40 etc)

Andy B.

Another vote for Silkolene - Magnatec is a semi-synthetic, ie mainly mineral based, and only has a small amount of the Esters that give the "clinging" properties. If you search on the Internet you will see that there was a huge law suit in the US between Castrol and Mobil, regarding the usage of the "Synthetic" nomenclature.

Pete

 

[Andy B Aces High]

Thanks GR.

I have the same problem with leaks which is also why I was looking at going up to 10W/40 or 10W/50. Was thinking of changing the cam cover joints next winter as they seem to be the main source of leaks along with the timing chain covers.

Do you need to flush the system out at all before using the Silkolene or is it a directly compatible oil with the Mobil 1 ?

Just had a look at the price and it seems comparable to the Mobil.

Andy B.

 

[Guards Red]

Andy, I believe they are compatible though some say it's best to buy more than you need and "dilute" flush the system. This means fill and run the engine then drain a few litres and fill up again. I didn't do this as I couldn't see how and still replace the crush washers on the drain plugs each time. I didn't fancy trying to juggle with the washers whilst the oil was busy pouring out! I am now on my third fill with Pro S with no problems. My car is serviced by my local OPC and I buy it for them to use these days. I always hope they use it rather than fill mine with Mobil and take home my Pro S!

 

[Guest]

Maurice is right guys. Use an approved oil.

I agonised for weeks over this issue. See my rather obsessive posts if you want a laugh! My conclusion? Mobil 1 was the one to go for. Why? Correct weighting for cold UK weather (we had 3" snow today in Peak District). 10 or 15W oils are far too viscous at low temps for the UK and will not circulate quickly enough. Ester-based oils are great if you're into racing, breaking down the engine regularly etc, but I discovered that they absorb water - not great if you want to avoid corrosion in your car's engine. Also, there is a question about their compatibility with some of the elastomers in engine seals. If you really want to get into this, try www.bobistheoilguy.com - used oil analysis gives you the definitive answer. Also look on Mobil's website - many myths are addressed. Why do Mercedes put Shell in all their engines, but M1 in the AMGs? Just look at what performance car manufacturers list M1 as their factory-approved oil - these manufacturers want the best. Do you think that with the millions that Mobil spend on advertising, they would take the risk of not producing the best oil for our cars? I don't think so.

Put the best oil you can afford in your car. Semi-synthetic is a false economy IMHO, even if you do a very low mileage.

Also, a tip I read about - to circulate oil before starting, remove your DME relay & crank the engine over for a few seconds before re-inserting it & starting the engine. Better for the engine & a method blessed by a highly respected Porsche indie mechanic that I spoke to recently.

Hopes this helps. []

 

[sawood12]

Why is Mobil 1 the only oil that has the correct weighting for our climate? You can get all the other brands of synth oils in virtually any grade you want and 5w40 mobil 1 is the same viscosity as any other oil of the same grade irrespective if it is fully synth or otherwise. I agree that semi synth is a false economy but Silkolene Pro S is also a Porsche approved oil - I know of 3 guys who supply their OPC's with the stuff at services with no problems from Porsche at all. There are lots of oils that Porsche approve, but the Mobil guys obviously pay good money to Porsche (and AMG apparently) to have their oil as the apparent recommended - this is a commercial world we live in, lets not kid ouselves that Porsche doesn't put things like this out to tender. All the oil guys i've spoken to say that although Mobil 1 is a very good oil and your car will run perfectly happy on it for ever and a day, by all means it's not the only one out there and it is not the best.

I've never heard that ester oils have any detrimental effects to engines. They are almost exclusively used in the aviation industry on gas turbine engines, where they are exposed to much higher temp ranges, are exposed to some pretty nasty chemicals and solvents, and are run for alot longer than the easy ride an oil gets in a car with a 6k mile service interval. At the extreme of their operating capabilities they may very well have issues - but doesn't everything?? And in any case the majority of the myths that surround fully synth oils (and ester oils) stem back from their early days when they may have had limitations - however the long march of technological development has worked its magic and personally I couldn't conceive of a situation where a minieral or semi synth oil is more preferable.

Given that basically all your engine wear occurs in the first 10 - 15 mins of every journey then, unless your ratio of starts to miles is very very low (i.e. lots of long journeys), then in my mind an ester oil has got to be a basic necessity, that's why i've gone for Silkolene.

I'd go 5w40 Silkolene Pro S (or Mobil 1 if you prefer) and stop worrying about it. Life is too short. And if your engine leaks then fix the leak. Don't run a thicker grade of oil - or, god fobid, downgrade to a semi-synth or mineral oil.

 

[Guards Red]

I agree with everything Scott says in his post. One small point though, when I was trying to find an aternative to Mobil 1, the first thing I did was check the car's handbook. Porsche state that a 10/50 is fine above minus 20 degrees.Mind you my car spends it's nights garaged so it's never that cold.

 

[Pickled Piper]

There was an interesting thread on Piston Heads a while back. There were several contributions from Baz Hartech. Interestingly, his engine builders would advocate a good old fashioned mineral oil. This was based on their experience of rebuilding high mileage engines. They were consistantly finding engines run on a good quality multigrade exhibited less wear than those run on the new fangled fully synthetic slippery stuff.

pp

 

[burrow01]

Maybe we need a group buy on this type of service

http://www.theoillab.co.uk/

Pete

 

[Johnny C]

Much as it distresses Maurice I use Castrol Edge 10-60 Sport (fully synth). I know that the 10 isn't great on start up, but there are 10-40's on the approved list so the engine can cope with it. I found that with thinner oils, the car doesn't seem to perform so well on long motorway runs, for whatever reason it does have a bit more grunt at lower revs in higher gears. I rarely do less than 40 miles a trip (and I do 2 of them most days)

 

[AlexG]

ORIGINAL: MoC2S


But there are no Silkolene products on the Porsche Approved Oil list, period .. [:-]

Isn't this because the Fuchs group didn't renew the approval for Silkolene Pro-S? I was under the impression it used to be on the approved list.

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: MoC2S

Think you're mixing threads up here .. 5W 40 is an approved viscosity range down to -25C. Here's an excerpt from the Dec 2007 Oils TSB ...
>>[FONT=porschenewsgothic"]Temperature Ranges:Above ""12 F° (""25° C):All oils approved by Porsche for the vehicle type to be considered.Below ""12 F° (""25° C)All oils approved by Porsche for the vehicle type to be considered which have aviscosity of SAE class 0W in the low temperature range.>>And on another point ..>>Miscibility: The engine oils approved by Porsche can be mixed with each other. This means that it is not necessaryto flush the engine when the oil is changed if another type of oil is used. However, since every brand ofoil has a specially adapted unique composition, the same oil should be used for topping up between oilchange intervals if possible.>>
But there are no Silkolene products on the Porsche Approved Oil list, period .. [:-]

Gas turbine lubricant requirements are also rather different to those of an air / oil cooled petrol fuelled internal combustion piston engine, so I don't buy that argument, either. I won't spend time making a list, but it could get long .. []

HTH, cheers, Maurice []

I was referencing the brand rather than the grade in my post. So OK, Silkolene may not be on the approved list of current suppliers, but the experience of the chaps I mentioned in my thread is that OPC Nottingham at least accepts the oil with no problems and without invalidating their warranties or any aspect of their warranties. I'm pretty sure that Silkolene Pro S has recently been on the approved list fairly recently certaily in the last few years since i've been using it because it said on the bottle word the the effect of "As approved by Porsche, Mercedes, BMW......." and goes on to list a whole load of car manufacturers. Maybe they didn't keep up their payments to Porsche to keep it on their approved list. Also now with modern fully synth oils Porsche is advocating an oil service every 20k miles - can't imagine any mineral oil or semi synth is capable of that.

Not sure how comparisons to the aviation industry are not valid. Ultimately oil is oil and the only difference between what we put in our cars and what goes into a gas turbine engine will be the grade of the oil. Fundamentally they are the same thing - and incidentally the certified oil for the engines my company builds is a fully synth Ester Mobil!

Just for comparison sake the 944 manual recomends a 5w40 for temps down to zero degrees and a 0W40 for sub zero temps. It recommends a 10w40 for climates over 15 degs - so does not apply to the UK then!

 

[Guest]

I spent weeks researching what the best oil might be to put in my car. The more I looked into this, the more I realised how little I knew. It is easy to say that an ester-based oil is the way to go, however these are more hygroscopic (water absorbing) than mineral and synthetic oils and you just need to do an Internet search to confirm this. It is very true that ester-based oils have superb shear stability, however I would not want an ester-based oil sitting in my engine, as I only take my car out every week or two. If you are using your car every day, this type of oil may be more suitable.

It is also important to bear in mind that oils must have many other properties as well as shear stability. There are other additives such as fiction modifiers which are just as important. Particularly important in the 911 engine are the antifoaming additives, as foaming is an significant issue in these engines and I would only want an oil that I trusted to do the job according to Porsche specification. If your oil foams, you could effectively have metal to metal contact.

Also, Mobil charge a premium price for their oil and could add esters if they wanted to, so why do they not? Well, we will ultimately never know as this is no doubt a commercial secret, however looking at the huge amount that this company invests in sponsorship and advertising, I find it very hard to see that they could be selling us a sub optimal product yet charging the earth and they would be found out sooner rather than later. If you look at the results of used oil analysis for Mobil 1 on forums such as www.bobistheoilguy.com, it gets a very good write-up time and time again. I do not believe that a type V ester-based oil is by default better than any type IV PAO oil and the argument is more complex than this.

If anyone is interested in getting into used oil analysis, please let me know. As far as I know, the cost of this is not prohibitive. Might be quite an interesting project!

Roddy

 

[burrow01]

ORIGINAL: roddylennox


Also, Mobil charge a premium price for their oil and could add esters if they wanted to, so why do they not? Well, we will ultimately never know as this is no doubt a commercial secret, however looking at the huge amount that this company invests in sponsorship and advertising, I find it very hard to see that they could be selling us a sub optimal product yet charging the earth and they would be found out sooner rather than later. If you look at the results of used oil analysis for Mobil 1 on forums such as www.bobistheoilguy.com, it gets a very good write-up time and time again. I do not believe that a type V ester-based oil is by default better than any type IV PAO oil and the argument is more complex than this.

If anyone is interested in getting into used oil analysis, please let me know. As far as I know, the cost of this is not prohibitive. Might be quite an interesting project!

Roddy

Hi Roddy,

Original question was ref Magnatec Semi Synthetic vs Mobil 1 synthetic, and I think that case is pretty much proven (apart from all the independents using semi-synthetic, I've still not seen a justification for this)

I would definitely be interested in doing some oil sample analysis - I think there is lots of discussion, opinion and marketing involved in oil choice, but the truth is out there

Only problem I can see is that not many people have the full history on their car - exactly what oil has been used at which services etc. I still think it would be a worthwhile exercise to have a representative group of cars oil tested. I'm certainly interested in the condition of my engine after the mileage it has done

Pete

 

[angry]

TITAN Supersyn SAE 5W-40 been using this stuff for some time now....seems fine to me.
Ive used a few different makes of oil in my 45000 miles of ownership.
I would say 50% thrashing round the Ring+other tracks and 50% road.
The engine runs better now than when i bought it.
The only time i got leaks was on mobil 1.
I think all the modern recommended oils are fine.
I think everyone should stop worrying about it and buy the one that is readily available to them at the time.
You would have to buy a pretty bizarre grade/make of oil to destroy your engine[]
Dan

 

[AlexG]

ORIGINAL: MoC2S

All approvals now have a finite life, so that may be the case .. however, Fuchs have got approval for TITAN Supersyn SAE 5W-40 until September 2008 ..

I'll put the complete TSB up, as noone seems to bother reading the linked page .. [&:]

cheers, Maurice []

Rest assured I read the TSB, I even searched for an earlier version to confirm whether Silkolene Pro S was indeed on an earlier approval list []

The whole approval status being linked to a bi-annual licence fee does open up the validity of the list to cynicism (in my opinion), I would be intereseted to know how many oils have been rejected during the approval process (though I concede this is information we are very unlikely to ever have access to).
As far as I am aware there have not been any fundamental changes to Silkolene Pro-S, so I see no reason why it is no longer suitable for use simply because it is not on 'the list'.
If I had a car that was still in warranty obviously I would abide by Porsche's recommendations.

 

[Guest]

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

Don't want to cause a mass panic, only one person's view. On the contrary there are some superb comments by a guy called Doug Hillary on Rennlist, who really knows what he is talking about.

I think that the flat tappet older 911 owners might have a problem with Mobil 1 0W-40, but our newer OHC engines should be fine with Mobil 1.

I can't convincingly see anything "better" for our cars, at the moment anyway. []

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: MoC2S

Roddy's point about the hygroscopic properties of esters illuminates the differing duty cycles vs the aviation industry - for a gas turbine plane, the engine is typically run for hours at a time, with the oil at full temperature. Very high rotational speeds, but no plain bearings, let alone pistons, rings and bores.

If ester oils are truly hygroscopic then that is even more reason to keep them away from aircraft jet engines. On the contraty, there is no place on a jet engine for anything that is sensitive to moisture. These things spend the majority of their life wet. Moisture gets into everything, on everything and around everything. They fly through rain clouds, spend hours at temps below -50 to -70 degrees before landing into a hot and humid far eastern country where it will sit on the tarmac for hours where condensation forms throughout the engine and its internals with plenty of opportunity for absorbsion into the oil system as the oil seals only work when the engine is running at temperature. When these things are stripped at refurbs there is signs of corrosion throughout the engine, even in the guts of the turbine and combustor. If ester oils are truly sensitive to moisture to the detriment of their performance then there is no way they would get anywhere near a jet engine.

The advice i've had suggests that ester oils will do everything a non-ester oil will do plus give you the added protection at initial startup. It is true that the start up protection degrades over time due to the polymeric strands in the oil getting chopped up and mangled as it gets chewed up in the oil pump and engine internals, but there is no detrimental effect to that as far as i'm aware - only an errosion of the benefits you get over and above a non-ester oil.

As you can tell, I really am convinced. I cannot see any good reason not to use a decent top quality fully synthetic ester oil in your car. I'm not saying that there is absolutely anything wrong with Mobil 1 - it's just Silkolene Pro S is better due to its added cold start protection. Are there ester based oils on the Porsche approved list? If so then Porsche also advocates their use.