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Mobil 1 or Magnatec, that is the question ?

Yes I have read that Mobil 1 has/had esters in it too Maurice. Exactly the same debate is still going on on the Rennlist forum. Basically, it waters down to the opinions of Doug Hillary vs Steve Weiner & Charles Navarro.

Can I be a bit thick? The main concern seems to be about engines with "flat tappets" - does this refer to older 911 engines with the pushrod design, where the pressures exerted on the cam gear are much higher? Am I getting confused here or is this right?

I feel rather anxious about putting Swepco 306, which is a paraffin-based oil in my car based on the views of one/two guys & still feel more confident about sticking with M1, particularly when you read the science that Doug Hillary explains. Might be more of a case in an "older" 911...?

[8|]
 
Hi Maurice,

Thanks for the clarification on these issues, very useful as always. I've still got a great deal to learn. Need to read Paul Frere's book for starters...

Cheers
Roddy [:)]
 
Still none the wiser as to which oil to use, have followed this thread after starting it and there seems to be a mass of mixed opinion. I was at Tognola and they recommend Mobil Super S 10W40 for the older cars like 993's. Someone at the Kent region spoke with Hartech ref his 993 and they have recomended Magnatec 10W40. They both say that with the cars getting older that Mobil 1 0W40 finds all the leaks, I take your point Maurice about if you have leaks then fix them but this is not always an easy fix and would require engine out for full job.

Looking on page 78 of the Porsche drivers manual that came with my car and Porsche list for above -20 Deg C 10W30, 10W40 or 10W50 although it does not mention which makes or types.

I am inclined to agree with angry that most of the good grade oils on the market are probably going to be ok if they match Porsche spec, even if Porsche do not list them as preffered oils. Companies like Castrol and Shell have been making this stuff for over 100 years and I am sure that they would not compromise on the quality of their product and they will be manufacturing to a given standard.

The most important thing for me is that my car is used infrequently and that it has good protection on start up, so which is best for this application ?

Andy B.
 
ORIGINAL: Andy B Aces High
The most important thing for me is that my car is used infrequently and that it has good protection on start up, so which is best for this application ?

A Porsche-approved oil!

Check out Mobil's website - they state that the leak thing is nonsense. I'd rather have a bit of oozing than a knackered engine. Thicker oil = slower circulation at start-up = potentially more wear. Leaks from the valve covers & timing chain covers are the most common - both can be easily sorted with the engine in the car (I know because I've done it). I just don't believe that M1 with make your RMS or anything else, be more likely to leak. Use an approved oil & nothing else - Porsche test many factors before approval for our engines.

Roddy
 
ORIGINAL: MoC2S
There are plenty of Castrol and Shell oils on the list (and many manufacturers you have never heard of !). Porsche insist on oils meeting standards above and beyond the industry standards before they can get on the list. Currently there are NO Silkolene products and I have discussed the approved Motul oils above.

I'm sorry if the ester debate has caused your confusion with this thread, but the factory guidance could not be more clear. If they change their stance, it will be for engineering reasons .. [8|]

Hi Maurice - If they change their stance, it will be for engineering reasons - or the manufacturer has decided not to continue with the approval process.....

If an oil was previously approved, and is now not on the approved list and the formulation has not changed should we stop using it?

I don't want to muddy the waters, but are we sure that the tests that they are currently performing to approve oils are relevant to 993 engines?

Pete
 
Have been running 8100 x- cess in my engine (k74 Kms) for 2 years including 2 or 3 k3 Kms runs and my engine appears 'happier' on it than M1 , plus I am getting better consumption on the Motul
 
My car lives in France a lot of the time and I get it serviced here , thats when I started using the Motul . It is cheaper than M1 , its not about the money though , the engine just feels different . Quite good prices for Motul and Fuchs from Opie .
ORIGINAL: MoC2S

ORIGINAL: sue11sam

Have been running 8100 x- cess in my engine (k74 Kms) for 2 years including 2 or 3 k3 Kms runs and my engine appears 'happier' on it than M1 , plus I am getting better consumption on the Motul

Thanks for the feedback - how does it compare cost-wise ? ..[:-]

cheers, Maurice [:D]
 
Thanks for the info on Motul 8100 x-cess, Opie are selling this for ÂŁ25 for 5 litres in the UK and it is on Porsche approved list so think I am going to give it a try.
ORIGINAL: sue11sam

Have been running 8100 x- cess in my engine (k74 Kms) for 2 years including 2 or 3 k3 Kms runs and my engine appears 'happier' on it than M1 , plus I am getting better consumption on the Motul
[/quote
 
Some further thoughts on this matter. I think we need to keep an open mind for the time being regarding the ZDDP & other anti-wear additives issue. There are plenty of horror stories on Rennlist regarding 993 engines evolving - yes, they may be unscientific or they may not, but let's keep an open mind. Some of these are from experienced Porsche mechanics, giving their anecdotal observations (repeatedly).

Also, why is Mobil Synt S on the approved Porsche list? This is a diesel oil or at least "Mobil Synt S Special V", which is on the Mobil website, seems to be. Also, Opie Oils recommend Mobil Synt S for our cars (have a look at their site - I have no affiliation).

Not stirring, but I am starting to get rather suspicious that we should be looking for oils higher in Zn & P than M1, or we may be at greater risk of top end wear. I'll phone Opie shortly to see what their views are on this & report back.

Roddy [:(][X(][8|]
 
With the greatest respect to Opie Oils (and I purchase from them myself) they sell oils. They are not a Porsche specialist.

I would be much more inclined to listen to advice speciffic to the 993 (and my earlier cars too) from some of the many Porsche specialists out there. I too have been following the discussions on Rennlist, Pelican etc and value the input from people like Charles Navarro and Steve Weiner but note they are US based and so typically have different blends of oil than the EU.

Unfortunately I am not convinced either way yet which is the best oil for the 993. Currently have Mobil 1 0W-40 in the engine. Have previously used Motul 300V 10W-40. Use Castrol RS 10W-60 in the 964 and the 2.4E and previously used a different oil in the 2.4E so no consensus even amongst my own cars!

Annual oil changes (or 12K miles if sooner) on all cars, whatever is in them.

Ian.
 
Surely any modern fully synthetic of the right 'weight' will do nicely, bearing in mind that these engines are now nicely 'run-in' and hardly in the first flushes of youth! I'm using Castrol Edge Sport 10W-60 in my 134000 mile 944 turbo and the oil pressure at (very) hot idle is 3bar and it has barely used a drop in 1000 miles of 'spirited' motoring. The 10W rating means it is not too thin so as find new ways past the old seals, hence no leaks I can see, whilst the 60 end of the scale protects the moving bits under the added heat and pressure of a turbocharged engine.

Put some good quality branded fully synthetic oil in there (I don't subscribe to the "that's not what was fitted as standard 17 years ago" policy[8|]) and change it regularly.

I had Mobil 1 10W50 in my old 964, although I would have needed something closer to 30W60 to stop the legendary 964 leaks...[8|][:D]

Life's too short to spend half of it worrying about oil....[:D]
 
This is such an emotive subject. Myths abound. Engines do not fail for the most part because of the oil used, assuming it is appropriate to the engine. They do fail or burn oil unexpectedly because of lack of regular oil changes, general neglect of top-ups and of course stupidity which is not unknown. As for the differences in premium brand performance you would be hard pressed to measure the difference unless you kept your car for many years and thousands of miles and then only by reference to the dismantling engineer. Annual oil changes are the best insurance against calamity. History of your engine will play a significant part in its reliability and longegevity, for the reasons already mentioned.

For what it is worth I use Castrol RS 5w/40, this is a workshop brand available from the likes of Autofarm during routine service. It is like Mobil1, expensive but excellent in service. For those of you who prefer to buy from Halford and other DIY outlets the same product for that market sells under the brand Castrol Edge 5w/40 Sport. The difference is a marketing one and derives from garages general historical dislike of all things DIY .

As a fact of history the current Castrol products have their genesis in Castrol RS 15w/60 (the brand sold throughout continental Europe at the time) and its then UK equivalent Castrol Syntron X (now superceded in name). I know because I had a not insignificant hand in the UK launch of Castrol SyntronX. Those of you who remember the delightful late Bill Taylor may recall his racing 911 fully liveried in the maroon colour of that brand. The new lubricant caused a few complaints (par for the course in Porsche racing circles) because others claimed its synthetic nature released extra horsepower giving an unfair advantage. The distinction between various racing categories at the time was brake horse power. It did reduced friction amongst its other virtues, improved cooling etc. Mobil1 was the main competitor, a very good product but given to leaking through weak joints. The Jaguar and Sauber/Mercedes sports racing cars which won world sportcar championships used RS very successfully which included wins at Le Mans 24 Heures. So the severe racing credentials are not bad. In the past, reference to American Castrol brands could be confusing because they favoured the primacy of the GTX brand name. Just for historical completeness Castrol TXT 10w/40 brand of the time was a semi-synthetic. This brand was a workshop exclusive grade in Germany and it was sold in other european markets and subsequently in the States. Times have changed of course and I would not claim to know the blends of that brand today. As for GTX Magnatec, this comes in a number of offerings and is good. For the cost conscious owner an excellent choice. Again Autofarm also offer Magnatec 5w/40 for servicing. I have used it but prefer RS 5w/40 on balance. I top up with Castrol Edge 5w/40 Sport which says on the label it is approved for Porsche and replaces Castrol RS. Now I know Maurice gets very exercised about lubricant's grades and sensibly uses Porsches current listings as his bible. He must be politically correct in this matter. The reality is that when our cars were first on the road Porsche's approval list looked somewhat different. The cars haven't changed but opinions have and there are new products on the market.

The advice I give to myself is to use a fully synthetic 5w/40 engine lubricant, ideally from a premium brand manufacturer, Castrol, Mobil, Shell etc. I have no direct knowledge of secondary brands other than that is what they are. It is not uncommon for secondary brand manufacturers to buy a stock additive package from an additive supplier, like Esso, so to meet a international standard, but not all. However, they do not necessarily have extensive research and development facilities at which, year in year out, drive engines to destruction to find an optimum lubricant blend. The premium manufacturers do just this. Castrol's extensive reasearch centre is based at Pangbourne, Berks. Some of the scientists there have very tall foreheads which probably accounts for the good things that come out of that place. Even in this scientific age the best lubricants still have an eliment of black art to them. The ingredients are very important, but the balance between them is crucial, not to mention that extra unique component. Sometimes ingedients can work abit against one another. Strange but true. Balance counts. You would be hard pressed to find a bad engine lubricant nowadays. It is just that some are slightly better than others. Call me biased but I had direct experience of what goes on in this fascinating business. In short you pays your money and makes your choice. All else is mere blather.
Hanhams81
 
I agree, but be wary that what we consider secondary brands here in the UK are amongst market leaders in other countries. On the american forums they talk about brands of oil I've never heard of and rarely mention Mobil and other brands we commonly think of as premium brands. Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it isn't any good.

However i'll stick up for the chaps at Opie oils. I think their knowledge and expertise runs far deeper and wider than those of mere product vendors. I think that is doing them a disservice. On the basis that they offer a wide variety of brands of oil they have no real reason to recommend one particular brand over any other (unlike Porsche) so the advice they give is more likely to be based on real product performance/capability.
 
ORIGINAL: sawood12

I agree, but be wary that what we consider secondary brands here in the UK are amongst market leaders in other countries. On the american forums they talk about brands of oil I've never heard of and rarely mention Mobil and other brands we commonly think of as premium brands. Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it isn't any good.

However i'll stick up for the chaps at Opie oils. I think their knowledge and expertise runs far deeper and wider than those of mere product vendors. I think that is doing them a disservice. On the basis that they offer a wide variety of brands of oil they have no real reason to recommend one particular brand over any other (unlike Porsche) so the advice they give is more likely to be based on real product performance/capability.

I'd agree. Must phone them tomorrow - will ask them why they recommend a diesel oil for quite a few 911s on their website.
 
Don't know about that as i've not visited their website, and they didn't recommend a diesel oil for my car. However why would a diesel engine'd car require a different type of oil anyway? The marketting people might want to let you think they do so they can add a bit of a premium onto the price, but fundamentally what is the difference between a 5w40 oil supposidly intended for a diesel car and a 5w40 oil intended for a petrol car??
 
OOps! Hands up. I dropped a booboo. Please read 0W/40 for my current sump's fill of RS and Edge Sport. I don't know what came over me. I can't even blame the buses, you know 0 followed by five at once. If I knew how to amend my original text I would do it. Any suggestions Maurice?
Hanhams81
 
Sawood 12. I think you have missed the point of my first paragraph. And I said you would be hard pressed to find a bad lubricant in the UK. It is the UK we live and mostly travel in.
As to "mere vendors" not knowing about their competition is to totally misunderstand the depth and understanding necessary to successfully perform globally and secure the respect and partnership of motor manufacturers. Competitors products are regularly analysised and when appropriate fully tested. Under the circumstances it is highly questionable whether a reseller has more knowledge in depth than a global vendor.
Hanhams81

 
ORIGINAL: sawood12

Don't know about that as i've not visited their website, and they didn't recommend a diesel oil for my car. However why would a diesel engine'd car require a different type of oil anyway? The marketting people might want to let you think they do so they can add a bit of a premium onto the price, but fundamentally what is the difference between a 5w40 oil supposidly intended for a diesel car and a 5w40 oil intended for a petrol car??

I think the rev range in a petrol engine would be considerably higher, leading to higher temps and more shear?

Pete
 

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