Modified cars.

[zcacogp]

John,

Apologies - I wasn't trying to be unfair.

I think you have put your finger on the counterpoint to modification; it is expensive, and takes a lot of time. Most people don't have a limitless bank of cash to spend on their car (there are always more important things to spend money on), and neither do they have unlimited time - they need to work in order to earn the aforementioned money!

You used the word "selfish". It's a good one. Joking aside, it explains in part why I chose an S2; having been very into modified cars previously, I know how much time and money they can absorb. I tinker with my car very little, but still enough to make my better half more than a little unhappy (from both the time and money points of view.)

Oh, and here are those categories again.


Oli.

1. Modify to bring up to modern standards (suspension etc)

2. Modify power/controls to improve tractability (turbo lag etc) and make it more driver friendly

3. Large power hikes that can only be seriously used on track

4. Standard with original part enhancements like wheels etc (they are already quick enough)

5. Bolt on expensive bling bits no-one can see and the benefits only realised at the traffic lights

6. Loads of racing car/safety stuff for 1 evening track day a year

7. Completely stripped out cars that only talk about track days

8. Extensive mods for as many track days the cost of the mods allow

9. Sensible tyres and brakes and nail it every weekend at a track somewhere

 

[poprock]

You've missed out a couple of categories there. Where do I fit in for making cosmetic tweaks to please nobody but myself, fitting a very fancy sound system so that I can hear my tunes over the roar of the Scottish weather and constantly fiddling with better and better instrument pod lighting so that I can avoid speeding tickets when it's dark?

(I'm just bitter that I live too far away from Promax and/or J. Mitchell to have serious engine tweaking done. Can you tell?)

 

[bw64870]

If you don't want to modify why is an S2 a better option than turbo?

I am formulating my long term plan as I have fallen in love with my '87 944 even though the engine has issues. Plan currently is to get a really nice turbo as my daily drive and keep it pretty much standard. Then to rebuild the 944's engine, and strip everything out and have it as a track car, which works for me because i like having a relatively slow car that i can hussle along and work on making quick without engine mods rather than a huge power car on track. So interested about your Turbo / S2 comment. I liked the Turbo plan because i want something that is as quick as possible while not modifying as I have learnt that power mods quickly become an addictive little money pit

 

[zcacogp]

Ive never driven an Turbo (standard or modified), but they are meant to be uninspiring from the box. The turbo lag is meant to be significant, and the power pretty unrefined when it arrives.

The S2 is much more progressive, with good torque everywhere and a decent response from the right foot when you need it.

As standard, the S2 is meant to be the better drive.

BUT if you are into mods, the turbo will respond well to a few grand's worth of kit, and can be turned into something very brisk indeed. Much brisker than an S2. The S2 isn't quite un-modifiable, but to get more power out of it is very hard. (They are very similar in terms of suspension and brakes tho', so the same applies to both cars in this respect.)


Oli.

 

[bw64870]

Thanks Oli

Sounds like it might come down to driving a couple of each before i make a decision , and then decide to get a turbo and spend a couple of grand []

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: bw64870

..... get a turbo and spend a couple of grand []

If only it stopped there. [][]

 

[bw64870]

I would only justify the original mod on improving drivability, and not power increase. whats that was right i would stop. no really, thats the way it works right.

and anyway, i will be too busy rebuilding the engine of my current car to go spending money on the turbo

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

Ive never driven an Turbo (standard or modified),

Oli.

You should try one, or are you worried you may like it too much [].

 

[zcacogp]

As the old saying goes, why go out for burger and chips if you have steak waiting at home? []

(Just let me know when this thread becomes serious again - thanks!)


Oli.

(Serious answer: Yes, I should. I think I would probably like it a lot. But I maintain that for what I want a car to do, my S2 is more than adaquete at lower cost.)

 

[James_G]

Agreed.

Bigger brakes would be nice mind, so an MO30 S2 it is then.

 

[zcacogp]

Really? You find that the brakes on your S2 aren't good enough?

That surprises me. Mine have yet to fail me in any way.

You have replaced the front disks recently, I seem to recall. Worth changing the fluid? Can make a BIG difference ...


Oli.

 

[TTM]

The S2 is almost too much reliable and it's got too little things to tinker with to leave much discussing about them. In the 65k miles I have driven mine the DME relay half-failed once, and other than this it stubbornly refused to break down in any way. Upgrading suspension bits by digging into the realms of the Porsche and aftermarket parts bin provided good personal fun & satifaction, but then I knew this would be as far as I would get with it given how difficult the engine can be enhanced.
Even if a MAF nicely improves throttle response and driveability, the power delivery remains quite lazy, and I think Porsche should have thrown this engine into the lighter shell of the Lux instead of the turbo.

It still serves me well as a car to get from A to B when I feel like not concentrating at all with the driving and the compromised, not-too-stiff suspension is good fun in corners but I know there is near nothing I can hope from it anymore in terms of tinkering.

As an everyday cruiser that needs to be totally reliable and provide ruthless efficiency the S2 really shines, but as a hardcore enthusiast car I think it is an epic failure [&:] - I would probably have more fun with a 924S which will certainly be slower but will also feel faster and lighter along with having a deliciously ugly, dated and cracked dahsboard []

 

[Hilux]

Nice list Paul - Regrettably I can see me straight away, though not through choice.[]

John

Its not where you are on the list or what you do with the car that counts - what I tried to suggest is that despite what plans or uses you have for the car its the varied input, interests and experiences that make a forum like this one.

Me? Where do I fit in?

Dont know really as I bought the 951 for a song with a mind to strip it down (and out) and track it but couldnt bring myself to do it as it turned out to be an ok car.

I`ve now decided to go down an alternative route that for a lot less money (so far [8|]) than the cost of upgrading my 951 engine [DPW, MAF, fuel rails, injectors, head gasket, chips etc] brings me less concern when on track and should allow me far more track time without cosseting the car due to readily affordable parts and engines etc should it all go pear shaped.

You might be interested where I`m at with it as its now running and (subject to an MOT) will be thrashed within an inch of its life on a track in a couple of weeks to see how it goes.

See here for details.

 

[Hilux]

Although I am developing a suspicion that the best 'modifications' are actually returning it to standard spec - removing worn-out parts and replacing with new, standard - or only mildly uprated - ones.)

A very astute observation and (in my opinion) the best option for a hobby car NOT a car that is to be tracked.[] In particular sensible upgrades like the suspension which genuinely transform the car.

To track a car is to suddenly decide that no matter how quick it is and no matter how cherished a red mist decends and the limits are then explored. If found wanting then please refer to Mr Simms excellent paragraph listing many misdemeanours requiring your wallets full attention. Also you cant afford to be too precious if you track it as you`ll be to worried about binning it or stone chips to enjoy it.

The problem then is that many a simple but DEDICATED track car will whup yer *rse anyway. Good fun none the less []

 

[John Sims]

The point, and fun, of any modification is understanding. You need to understand where your car is lacking for you.

If you don't track a car the probability is the brakes will be fine. If you don't consider the handling to be wayward then don't spend money on it. If the car is fast enough don't look for more power.

Once you establish a shortfall the fun is addressing it and seeing how you can improve it.

944's weren't designed specifically as track cars so if you do use them on the track things become apparent which you may then wish to address.

My fun on track days was previously spoilt by bad habits killing brakes. I still have bad habits but the brakes have been changed to cope with them.

The car used to lean a lot. It doesn't now through suspension modifications but this has meant faster cornering now kills the tyres within three laps - you can guess what is on the list for another modification.

Greater cornering forces are also causing me concerns over oil surge and so the whole process is self perpetuating.

The faster you go the more issues become apparent.

 

[Neil Haughey]

The S2 v Turbo thing is pretty much all tied up in engine/power tuning. S2 is the only sensible choice really if one is considering a car as a race car project, if you can find a class that will take the turbo I doubt it would be competitive these days. As alluded to earlier performance modifying really breaks down into 2 camps, the first is really about making a really nice quick car that will go well on track, the 2nd is about making a proper full on track car which is really a race car. The turbo definitely fits the first camp much better then the S2.

 

[James_G]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

Really? You find that the brakes on your S2 aren't good enough?

That surprises me. Mine have yet to fail me in any way.

You have replaced the front disks recently, I seem to recall. Worth changing the fluid? Can make a BIG difference ...


Oli.

Not fitted yet Oli, job for this weekend, but they are fine for the road and mild track use. I think though that Medium Blacks (I think - the whole brakes thing gets confusing) would give a touch more confidence for some of the brake heavy tracks (I'm thinking Bedford here) but otherwise they are excellent. Only replacing the discs as I have done four track days on them and they are an unknown quantity to me, having been fitted before my tenure. Plus it's fun, as you know []

 

[Diver944]

Just to clear up terminology:

S2 and 220 Turbo have small blacks
250 Turbo has Medium blacks
928GTS has Big Blacks (and can be retrofittd to our cars)

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: TTM
As an everyday cruiser that needs to be totally reliable and provide ruthless efficiency the S2 really shines, but as a hardcore enthusiast car I think it is an epic failure [&:] - I would probably have more fun with a 924S which will certainly be slower but will also feel faster and lighter along with having a deliciously ugly, dated and cracked dahsboard []

Good post TTM. Spot on.

It's all down to what you want to do with it. As a 20k-per-year daily driver (and only car), my S2 is perfect. I really don't know what I would replace it with. What I DO know is that a Turbo would be great fun for a while, but I would get badly caught up on the slippery slope of modification, and it would bankrupt me. Self-restraint is not a thing that comes naturally to me, and not having the temptation is a good thing in many ways ...

James, change them there disks and pads (fun, as you said!) for some decent kit and change the brake fluid while you are at it. I'd be surprised if you then think that the brakes are lacking. In my experience (although I have yet to have the car on track), they are excellent and have yet to fade on me. (One occasion when I thought they might was during some spirited driving in Scotland around 18 months ago, on roads which have proved challenging for other cars I have owned; the S2 brakes did as required repeatedly, to my slight surprise.)

If you do need to go bigger than there is a world of possibility out there! Although I don't think it is a cheap road to tread ...


Oli.

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: John Sims

ORIGINAL: bw64870

..... get a turbo and spend a couple of grand []

If only it stopped there. [][]

[&:]