My new 982 718 Cayman S PDK
- Thread starter Brian_Innes
- Start date
Brian_Innes
Member
bandido,
My recent descriptions regarding the power delivery of the 718 are referring to my experiences during high speed laps on a race circuit. The torquey power delivery as described comes in at 3000 revs when exiting the slowest corner at Knockhill, the hairpin. Exiting the hairpin, revs are then held to 7500 rpm in 2nd, and 3rd gears, when 4th is selected all the way to the end of the uphill straight. This is where the torque comes in with the 4-pot turbo. Exiting slower corners. The 7500rpm limit is the upper limit for upshifting when on a hot lap.
Road driving is entirely different. The normal power band on the 718 is between 2500 and 6000 rpm when on public roads. This is where the 718 excels compared to the six cylinder engines. The 4-pot turbo provides accessible power delivery under normal driving conditions. On the road, this engine does not need to be revved to over 5000 rpm to access brisk progress like the six-cylinder engines do.
I hope this clarifies my point, bandido.
Brian
My recent descriptions regarding the power delivery of the 718 are referring to my experiences during high speed laps on a race circuit. The torquey power delivery as described comes in at 3000 revs when exiting the slowest corner at Knockhill, the hairpin. Exiting the hairpin, revs are then held to 7500 rpm in 2nd, and 3rd gears, when 4th is selected all the way to the end of the uphill straight. This is where the torque comes in with the 4-pot turbo. Exiting slower corners. The 7500rpm limit is the upper limit for upshifting when on a hot lap.
Road driving is entirely different. The normal power band on the 718 is between 2500 and 6000 rpm when on public roads. This is where the 718 excels compared to the six cylinder engines. The 4-pot turbo provides accessible power delivery under normal driving conditions. On the road, this engine does not need to be revved to over 5000 rpm to access brisk progress like the six-cylinder engines do.
I hope this clarifies my point, bandido.
Brian
Sure. My point is just that the torque curve for the 718s (which comes up fast and early as you'd expect from a turbo-this is as you say its strength) falls away big time to 7,500. I would be very surprised if the gear ratios are such (particularly between 3rd and 4th but even 2nd/3rd) that it's worth holding on that long. The curve I looked at shows about 290 NM at 7,500 down from about 420 peak. It would take a big gearing jump to swallow all the extra torque available on a upshift.
Obviously on a track you have to think about grip/smoothness etc not just torque/revs. And then you get busy with traffic etc and you could -understandably-care less about maths. Or it makes sense to thrash it because if you shifted up you'd only have to come back down in a moment for that bend coming up (obviously pdk helps here). Still the figures are interesting.
Btw: in case it's not clear, this is not an anti 718 comment at all. I drove one at Porsche Silverstone. My impressions for what they are worth was that the low end torque was less impressive than I expected (this is obviously wrong it's definitely there it just didn't strike me that day). The chassis on the other hand was absolutely superb, better than my high expectation. I was having a low level row with my instructor (ie my ex policeman) and I drove really badly and unintelligently-too fast into corners, early apexes absolute rubbish and I kept thinking you idiot you've really cooked it this time but the chassis/systems bailed me out time after time. (The row preceded but exacerbated the lousy driving!)
As for the sound, it's not bad. Not as good as the six but not bad at all. And for me sound is about as important as colour. Nice sound/colour is pleasing. Performance (whether on road or track) is what matters. (I mean performance in an overall sense-handling, confidence giving, margin for error, car as your friend-all those intangibles not just 0-60 times). The 718 performs and no doubt.
Obviously on a track you have to think about grip/smoothness etc not just torque/revs. And then you get busy with traffic etc and you could -understandably-care less about maths. Or it makes sense to thrash it because if you shifted up you'd only have to come back down in a moment for that bend coming up (obviously pdk helps here). Still the figures are interesting.
Btw: in case it's not clear, this is not an anti 718 comment at all. I drove one at Porsche Silverstone. My impressions for what they are worth was that the low end torque was less impressive than I expected (this is obviously wrong it's definitely there it just didn't strike me that day). The chassis on the other hand was absolutely superb, better than my high expectation. I was having a low level row with my instructor (ie my ex policeman) and I drove really badly and unintelligently-too fast into corners, early apexes absolute rubbish and I kept thinking you idiot you've really cooked it this time but the chassis/systems bailed me out time after time. (The row preceded but exacerbated the lousy driving!)
As for the sound, it's not bad. Not as good as the six but not bad at all. And for me sound is about as important as colour. Nice sound/colour is pleasing. Performance (whether on road or track) is what matters. (I mean performance in an overall sense-handling, confidence giving, margin for error, car as your friend-all those intangibles not just 0-60 times). The 718 performs and no doubt.
Brian_Innes
Member
All points taken bandido.
On the holding of gears to the redline, on my 718 the maximum torque of 420Nm is produced between 1900 and 4500 rpm, maximum power 350BHP at 6500 rpm. Torque pulls the car out of corners, BHP provides top-end power along the straights.
At Knockhill, I tried gear-shifting manually with the PDK paddles, selecting the auto-shift according to the Sport Plus mode as fitted to my car. On manual select, I upshifted through 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, at 6800 rpm which was absolutely fine. However, when in auto mode and Sport Plus, the PDK mapping held the intermediate gears to the red line, 7500rpm, before slamming hard into the next gear up. This is how Porsche have programmed PDK in Sport Plus mode. Another reason why I only use this feature on the race track. Sport Plus is far too extreme for the public road in my opinion.
I don't wish to re-ignite the PDK versus manual arguments again. But, I would say that in my particular case, with a grip impairment problem on my right hand due to early stages of MND, the auto PDK mode allows me to concentrate fully on the braking, turn-in, apex clipping, and exit lines, as my pace increased to near my former competitive motorsport levels. By the end of the day, to my utter surprise, the PDK Sport Plus mapping "learnt" both my driving style and pace, producing upshifts and downshifts, with the accompanying ferocious throttle blips, exactly as I would have done had I been shifting the gears manually. Albeit at a slightly higher rev limit.
At heart I am still a manual gearbox driver, in my past life I became very accomplished in double-declutching, heeling and toeing, and left foot braking during 50+ years of competitive motorsport. My feet danced on the pedals with the best of them. Sadly, those days are long past.
This new, revised PDK with Sport Chrono has extended my track driving days which otherwise would have ended last year with the selling of my Cayman R manual. So for me the PDK upshifting at the 7500 rpm red line is perfectly acceptable to me. The 718 CS as I have specced it and set the geo, is a perfect machine for both road and track.
Brian
On the holding of gears to the redline, on my 718 the maximum torque of 420Nm is produced between 1900 and 4500 rpm, maximum power 350BHP at 6500 rpm. Torque pulls the car out of corners, BHP provides top-end power along the straights.
At Knockhill, I tried gear-shifting manually with the PDK paddles, selecting the auto-shift according to the Sport Plus mode as fitted to my car. On manual select, I upshifted through 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, at 6800 rpm which was absolutely fine. However, when in auto mode and Sport Plus, the PDK mapping held the intermediate gears to the red line, 7500rpm, before slamming hard into the next gear up. This is how Porsche have programmed PDK in Sport Plus mode. Another reason why I only use this feature on the race track. Sport Plus is far too extreme for the public road in my opinion.
I don't wish to re-ignite the PDK versus manual arguments again. But, I would say that in my particular case, with a grip impairment problem on my right hand due to early stages of MND, the auto PDK mode allows me to concentrate fully on the braking, turn-in, apex clipping, and exit lines, as my pace increased to near my former competitive motorsport levels. By the end of the day, to my utter surprise, the PDK Sport Plus mapping "learnt" both my driving style and pace, producing upshifts and downshifts, with the accompanying ferocious throttle blips, exactly as I would have done had I been shifting the gears manually. Albeit at a slightly higher rev limit.
At heart I am still a manual gearbox driver, in my past life I became very accomplished in double-declutching, heeling and toeing, and left foot braking during 50+ years of competitive motorsport. My feet danced on the pedals with the best of them. Sadly, those days are long past.
This new, revised PDK with Sport Chrono has extended my track driving days which otherwise would have ended last year with the selling of my Cayman R manual. So for me the PDK upshifting at the 7500 rpm red line is perfectly acceptable to me. The 718 CS as I have specced it and set the geo, is a perfect machine for both road and track.
Brian
Pthornley
New member
Having come out of a 981 base that I owned for a year and going into a bright yellow 718 I think the cars are massively different
the 981 I was always ringing every last bit of power out of it, like A Petrol lawnmower or a go cart …… revving it up all the time and driving round in second gear.
the 718 is very different, it's just much easier to live with, faster, easier to drive and to be honest sounds better IMO !!
the 981 sounded amazing for 10 percent of the time ( when it was howling at 7k revs on a country lane ) while my 718 sounds great 90 percent of the time
if I had the space I would have kept the 981 and ran it alongside a 718 but to be honest… if I did … most mornings I would choose the 718
the 981 I was always ringing every last bit of power out of it, like A Petrol lawnmower or a go cart …… revving it up all the time and driving round in second gear.
the 718 is very different, it's just much easier to live with, faster, easier to drive and to be honest sounds better IMO !!
the 981 sounded amazing for 10 percent of the time ( when it was howling at 7k revs on a country lane ) while my 718 sounds great 90 percent of the time
if I had the space I would have kept the 981 and ran it alongside a 718 but to be honest… if I did … most mornings I would choose the 718
Fudgie
New member
Blimey... light the touch paper and stand well back with those 981 v 718 comments...
Never driven a 981 only an old 2.7 gen1 987 boxster, but I remember feeling rather underwhelmed by it's performance unless rev'ing the a** off it, which is fine on a Sunday morning blast or track day etc but not necessarily the way you want to drive to work on a Monday morning!
It seems to me Porsche have rightly or wrongly (depending on your perspective) made a better all round car in the 718 that will now appeal more to the sort people who would also consider a Z4 or SLK (or whatever Merc call it now) etc than maybe the 981 did. These people are highly unlikely to ever take it near a track or drive it anywhere near it's limits and are certainly not going to get it Geo'd or even know what that means and worry about what brand of tyre it has...
However, as per Brian's highly informative posts over resent months the 718 still has a lot to offer the enthusiast albeit in a different way to the 981.
Never driven a 981 only an old 2.7 gen1 987 boxster, but I remember feeling rather underwhelmed by it's performance unless rev'ing the a** off it, which is fine on a Sunday morning blast or track day etc but not necessarily the way you want to drive to work on a Monday morning!
It seems to me Porsche have rightly or wrongly (depending on your perspective) made a better all round car in the 718 that will now appeal more to the sort people who would also consider a Z4 or SLK (or whatever Merc call it now) etc than maybe the 981 did. These people are highly unlikely to ever take it near a track or drive it anywhere near it's limits and are certainly not going to get it Geo'd or even know what that means and worry about what brand of tyre it has...
However, as per Brian's highly informative posts over resent months the 718 still has a lot to offer the enthusiast albeit in a different way to the 981.
Fudgie said:
I found that when I had just the 3.4L engine it was really fast to spin up and with PDK overtaking was pretty rapid. Now with a tuned 3.8L and PDK it still spins up quickly and overtaking is more rapid but when just pottering around or on the motorway the additional torque makes for a more relaxed drive.
Sounds OK too..
Brian_Innes
Member
Now here's a thing.......
My car has now done over 6800 miles, including 3 very "energetic" track days. Up to now I have been less than impressed by the fuel economy on general road driving which has already been reported by me as being around 25 to 26mpg on the type of roads I drive on in my part of Scotland. In fact, I have been hard pressed to see more than 27 mpg on most trips, where my previous Cayman R manual would have recorded 30mpg.
Today I had a 225 mile trip from my home near Inverness to the far north west of Scotland, visiting Inverewe, Poolewe and Aultbea. Due to the nature of the roads I was driving on, I used a combination of "D" fully auto, and "M" semi-auto, as well as Sport and Normal modes on the steering wheel mode switch dial. To my surprise the recorded MPG showed 31mpg for the total trip at an average speed of 46 mph. Those of you who have driven on the roads in the Highlands will recognise that that is a respectable average speed on roads that include many miles of single track sections with passing places.
Another thing I wish to report, is that the 718 engine seems to be even more responsive and "rorty" since crossing the 6500 mile mark. Acceleration and torque seems to be very sharp and even more accessible now than it was at lower mileages. In my experience of cars and engines, performance usually improves as the engines internals bed-in and loosen-up. The way a car is driven, and which grade of fuel is used also has a bearing on performance. Even so, with my 718, as I have specced it and driven it, this car seems to be getting faster and sharper with every 1000 miles I put on the clock. Today, it was definitely 911 991.2 Carrera S quick, but with the chassis agility and handling balance these current 911 models have yet to aspire to. I've said it before, but I shall say it agin, this car is good, very, good, and I never expected to be writing in these terms when I sold my much loved CR manual.
Brian
My car has now done over 6800 miles, including 3 very "energetic" track days. Up to now I have been less than impressed by the fuel economy on general road driving which has already been reported by me as being around 25 to 26mpg on the type of roads I drive on in my part of Scotland. In fact, I have been hard pressed to see more than 27 mpg on most trips, where my previous Cayman R manual would have recorded 30mpg.
Today I had a 225 mile trip from my home near Inverness to the far north west of Scotland, visiting Inverewe, Poolewe and Aultbea. Due to the nature of the roads I was driving on, I used a combination of "D" fully auto, and "M" semi-auto, as well as Sport and Normal modes on the steering wheel mode switch dial. To my surprise the recorded MPG showed 31mpg for the total trip at an average speed of 46 mph. Those of you who have driven on the roads in the Highlands will recognise that that is a respectable average speed on roads that include many miles of single track sections with passing places.
Another thing I wish to report, is that the 718 engine seems to be even more responsive and "rorty" since crossing the 6500 mile mark. Acceleration and torque seems to be very sharp and even more accessible now than it was at lower mileages. In my experience of cars and engines, performance usually improves as the engines internals bed-in and loosen-up. The way a car is driven, and which grade of fuel is used also has a bearing on performance. Even so, with my 718, as I have specced it and driven it, this car seems to be getting faster and sharper with every 1000 miles I put on the clock. Today, it was definitely 911 991.2 Carrera S quick, but with the chassis agility and handling balance these current 911 models have yet to aspire to. I've said it before, but I shall say it agin, this car is good, very, good, and I never expected to be writing in these terms when I sold my much loved CR manual.
Brian
Brian_Innes
Member
Those of you have who have followed my 718 thread will already know my views on the droning note of the 718 exhaust on normal driving conditions on public roads, particularly on motorways and the like. On the track at full tilt the engine sings along absolutely fine at the upper reaches of the rev range. During my 6 months and 6800 miles of ownership thus far, I've had this nagging thought that the standard exhaust system could be optimised a bit better, not only for sound but also for efficiency and performance.
As already stated, I am a stickler for keeping my car OE standard for the duration of the manufacturers warranty. However, my personal circumstances are such that I may not be owning my 718 beyond the Porsche 3 year warranty period. I love my 718 CS, and intend to maximise my enjoyment as long as I am fit and able to drive it as it was designed to be driven. So, I am having second thoughts about keeping the car strictly standard. Tyres also come into this.
I have been looking at the FVD Brombacher site in Germany, a well respected tuner with close links to Porsche as a reputable independent performance development supplier. FVD have produced their own alternative exhaust muffler system. Made in high quality 316 grade stainless steel, this system is a straight swap for the Porsche PSE on the 718. It includes the connections for the switchable exhaust valve, and importantly requires no ECU remapping or error code adjustments. FVD claim an additional 17 bhp and 13 torques with this system on the standard 350 bhp 718 Cayman S. They also claim it eliminates the exhaust drone which is prevalent at cruising speeds.
I would welcome your knowledgable comments on my above thoughts. I particularly noted that forum contributors Ralphmusic slotted a 3.8 Carrera engine into his 981, and also Chris W modified the suspension and brakes of his GT4. Both did so within the manufacturers 3 year warranty period. They obviously took the risk. Those of you who know my approach to Porsche ownership and track driving will be aware that I am a racer at heart and love to exercise my Porsche to it's maximum on the track. If this FVD exhaust modification were to be carried out, I would still have the OE exhaust retained in my garage to re-fit when the time comes to sell my 718. The cost of the FVD kit is around £3k.
All comments will be much appreciated. Both for and against.
Brian
As already stated, I am a stickler for keeping my car OE standard for the duration of the manufacturers warranty. However, my personal circumstances are such that I may not be owning my 718 beyond the Porsche 3 year warranty period. I love my 718 CS, and intend to maximise my enjoyment as long as I am fit and able to drive it as it was designed to be driven. So, I am having second thoughts about keeping the car strictly standard. Tyres also come into this.
I have been looking at the FVD Brombacher site in Germany, a well respected tuner with close links to Porsche as a reputable independent performance development supplier. FVD have produced their own alternative exhaust muffler system. Made in high quality 316 grade stainless steel, this system is a straight swap for the Porsche PSE on the 718. It includes the connections for the switchable exhaust valve, and importantly requires no ECU remapping or error code adjustments. FVD claim an additional 17 bhp and 13 torques with this system on the standard 350 bhp 718 Cayman S. They also claim it eliminates the exhaust drone which is prevalent at cruising speeds.
I would welcome your knowledgable comments on my above thoughts. I particularly noted that forum contributors Ralphmusic slotted a 3.8 Carrera engine into his 981, and also Chris W modified the suspension and brakes of his GT4. Both did so within the manufacturers 3 year warranty period. They obviously took the risk. Those of you who know my approach to Porsche ownership and track driving will be aware that I am a racer at heart and love to exercise my Porsche to it's maximum on the track. If this FVD exhaust modification were to be carried out, I would still have the OE exhaust retained in my garage to re-fit when the time comes to sell my 718. The cost of the FVD kit is around £3k.
All comments will be much appreciated. Both for and against.
Brian
It is possible to fit non-OEM parts during the manufacturer's 3 year period without risking warranty as long as the parts are equivalent (courtesy EU). The post 3 year period insured warranty is governed by contract law and fitting non-standard parts can be used to deny claims even on unrelated aspects of the car.
Agree about the small performance increase, I think these systems are more about sound.
Best to go to the max with something like this..
http://www.techart.de/en/techart-showroom/programs/for-718/aerodynamic-kit-i/performance.html with their powertrain warranty (although how this affects a claim for unrelated failures I don't know), or
Ehresmann Automotive 718S Stage 2 tune with 450 PS / 540 NM
Agree about the small performance increase, I think these systems are more about sound.
Best to go to the max with something like this..
http://www.techart.de/en/techart-showroom/programs/for-718/aerodynamic-kit-i/performance.html with their powertrain warranty (although how this affects a claim for unrelated failures I don't know), or
Ehresmann Automotive 718S Stage 2 tune with 450 PS / 540 NM
I think you're more concerned about the sound than any marginal performance increase Brian.
I'm sure that FVD are a reputable company and the product looks to be well engineered and constructed so, as Ralph says, I can't see there being any warranty problems or detrimental affects if you fit the system. The only problem is that most probably you won't have an opportunity to sample it's benefits until you've purchased and fitted it to your 718, but if you're prepared to take the risk it could be a worthwhile modification.
Jeff
I'm sure that FVD are a reputable company and the product looks to be well engineered and constructed so, as Ralph says, I can't see there being any warranty problems or detrimental affects if you fit the system. The only problem is that most probably you won't have an opportunity to sample it's benefits until you've purchased and fitted it to your 718, but if you're prepared to take the risk it could be a worthwhile modification.
Jeff
Brian_Innes
Member
All very good points. This is the great thing about this forum, getting the wise counsel of others who are detached from the owner/driver perspective.
The 718 is still a very new car and has yet to be fully developed both by Porsche and the wider aftermarket. As Jeff so rightly says, the only way to gauge the true benefit of this FVD exhaust conversion is to buy it and fit it to my car. At £3k it's not an insignificant sum for an exhaust swap mainly to address the road cruising sound aspect.
The performance gains are indeed small. It's mostly about sound and countering the exhaust drone when on intercity routes. It'll be interesting to see whether Porsche address this issue on the forthcoming 718 GTS which, if it includes a revised exhaust and ECU remap, could unlock substantial performance gains..........it all depends on the marketing.
I think I'll hold back on my decision on modifying the exhaust on my 718 for now. Thanks all, for your helpful contributions meantime.
Brian
The 718 is still a very new car and has yet to be fully developed both by Porsche and the wider aftermarket. As Jeff so rightly says, the only way to gauge the true benefit of this FVD exhaust conversion is to buy it and fit it to my car. At £3k it's not an insignificant sum for an exhaust swap mainly to address the road cruising sound aspect.
The performance gains are indeed small. It's mostly about sound and countering the exhaust drone when on intercity routes. It'll be interesting to see whether Porsche address this issue on the forthcoming 718 GTS which, if it includes a revised exhaust and ECU remap, could unlock substantial performance gains..........it all depends on the marketing.
I think I'll hold back on my decision on modifying the exhaust on my 718 for now. Thanks all, for your helpful contributions meantime.
Brian
Interesting Brian...
well I suppose if the pdk up-shifts at the redline I must be wrong because they didn't put that system there to make you go slower...
An interesting comparison though is if you watch F1 and get a shot of the tach which basically spends its time bouncing off the top (such is the ability of those engines to build (huge) revs fast) and then look at some Nurburgring fast road/sports car footage with a tach display and long periods are not too far past the top of the clock-maybe 5500 ish (ok with cars revving as third as high but still being feathered at the top of the curve).
Regarding pdk when I have driven it I can quite see it is superior in terms of ease/speed. I can see two caveats for fast road use- 1) the changes are so simple, with the flick of a fingers, that there is a temptation to play around blipping up and down when actually it's more efficient to stay in gear until you really have to change-in other words you need to restrain yourself a little to get the best out of pdk; 2) down from top to say second (for, say, that bypass roundabout) is quite a few blips and again because they are so easy to do it is quite easy to forget (lose concentration) as to where you are for a moment. Like Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry-'did I count 5 or only 4...in all this excitement I forget...' Of course you can look at the digital display and the engine noise or the lack of pull when you throttle up will tell you, but slightly later than you want.
But used well pdk is progress and progress is good! (I drive a manual!)
well I suppose if the pdk up-shifts at the redline I must be wrong because they didn't put that system there to make you go slower...
An interesting comparison though is if you watch F1 and get a shot of the tach which basically spends its time bouncing off the top (such is the ability of those engines to build (huge) revs fast) and then look at some Nurburgring fast road/sports car footage with a tach display and long periods are not too far past the top of the clock-maybe 5500 ish (ok with cars revving as third as high but still being feathered at the top of the curve).
Regarding pdk when I have driven it I can quite see it is superior in terms of ease/speed. I can see two caveats for fast road use- 1) the changes are so simple, with the flick of a fingers, that there is a temptation to play around blipping up and down when actually it's more efficient to stay in gear until you really have to change-in other words you need to restrain yourself a little to get the best out of pdk; 2) down from top to say second (for, say, that bypass roundabout) is quite a few blips and again because they are so easy to do it is quite easy to forget (lose concentration) as to where you are for a moment. Like Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry-'did I count 5 or only 4...in all this excitement I forget...' Of course you can look at the digital display and the engine noise or the lack of pull when you throttle up will tell you, but slightly later than you want.
But used well pdk is progress and progress is good! (I drive a manual!)
Brian_Innes
Member
I have to agree with your comments Bandido, particularly on the playful aspects of PDK when enjoying a flowing, open rural road, as I have in abundance here in the Highlands. I have by now gotten used to the 4-pot turbo engine's characteristics, so I find the magnetism of the gear indicator indicator in the rev counter less of a temptation to continually glance at for reassurance. As with a manual gearbox, when concentrating on brisk progress on an empty, open, flowing rural road, I am fully engaged in my driving and intuitively remember which gear I am in. In my mind, I count down the finger-flipping blips when, say changing from 4th to 2nd for a tight corner, and likewise count up the gear changes on the corner exit. For me, after decades of manual gearboxes, I find this adds fun and enjoyment to the rural road experience.
To return briefly to the 718 modifying topic, the Tech Art conversion as linked in Ralph's recent post is an excellent indicator of the substantial performance gains the aftermarket tuners can offer relatively easily on the 718 range. No need for cylinder heads, camshafts, or even throttle body swaps on this model. The 718 chassis and brakes are good for big increases in dynamic performance. Surely it's only a matter of when, not if, the 718 Cayman evolves into hybrid or full electric power. Or will the 911 once again stymie the mid-engine platform development? Probably, yes, and yes.
Brian
To return briefly to the 718 modifying topic, the Tech Art conversion as linked in Ralph's recent post is an excellent indicator of the substantial performance gains the aftermarket tuners can offer relatively easily on the 718 range. No need for cylinder heads, camshafts, or even throttle body swaps on this model. The 718 chassis and brakes are good for big increases in dynamic performance. Surely it's only a matter of when, not if, the 718 Cayman evolves into hybrid or full electric power. Or will the 911 once again stymie the mid-engine platform development? Probably, yes, and yes.
Brian
Brian_Innes
Member
Having booked my entry for Oulton Park on November 15th, tyre replacement is looming. As many of you will already know the availability of the N rated PS4S has been delayed until November. I shall fit the normal PS4S if I have to. Cup 2's are ideally my choice, but are only supplied in 245 section fronts. Although I can get 265 section Cup 2 rears ok.
Currently Michelin have escalated my enquiry on the availability of PS4S and the Cup 2's in my 718 20" sizes. An email response is due from Michelin shortly.
Brian
Currently Michelin have escalated my enquiry on the availability of PS4S and the Cup 2's in my 718 20" sizes. An email response is due from Michelin shortly.
Brian
Steve Brookes
Moderator
Brian, regarding the PS4s, Kevin A has experience of using them on track with his Cayman R (19 inch PS4 are already N rated). He saw a lot of shoulder wear. So much so that he had to replace the front left after using them only one day at Anglesey. In hindsight running them at higher pressure might have helped but they don't seem to be able to take the track abuse that supersports and cup2s can.
Steve,
How much of shoulder wear is down to camber, or lack thereof and driving style?
I am not knocking drivers but some seem to be easier on tyres and some like me need tons of camber.
My N/S front after 3k miles including 4 track days (Silverstone, Spa, Donnington Park and Castle Combe), still around 5mm left evenly across the tread helped no doubt with -3:10 degrees negative camber on front and -2:40 rear. Cup2 tyres do take wear but need more camber because of the extra speed round corners.
How much of shoulder wear is down to camber, or lack thereof and driving style?
I am not knocking drivers but some seem to be easier on tyres and some like me need tons of camber.
My N/S front after 3k miles including 4 track days (Silverstone, Spa, Donnington Park and Castle Combe), still around 5mm left evenly across the tread helped no doubt with -3:10 degrees negative camber on front and -2:40 rear. Cup2 tyres do take wear but need more camber because of the extra speed round corners.
Steve Brookes
Moderator
Camber (lack of) does indeed contribute to the wear he got. As does Anglesey circuit which is particularly hard on the front left. What I was pointing out to Brian was that on three near identical Cayman Rs (that have minimal negative camber in factory guise) with similar drivers...Kevin (PS4), me (supersport) and Ian R (Cup 2) that the PS4s have worn the worst. Kevin's subsequent conversations with Michelin Technical staff confirmed that the PS4 although offering great grip, won't take the track abuse that the Cup2 and supersport will. Major differences in the side wall constructions were mentioned.
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