New car and a long list to start on!

[DivineE]

I know in the end there's no better way than stripping weight to make a car faster and it makes A LOT of sense to me to reduce the stress on components rather than increase it! If I had two 944 turbos I would without question have a stripped out track beast like you've done as I've done other light weight cars before and I love the positive feel of a light car for turn in and braking.

But.. this is going to be my everyday car to drive to work. Also for me personally the reason I love the 944 is its duel personality. No other car (I've driven) feels such a comfortable place to be on a long journey and yet still feel so competent when things get twisty. A 3.0 turbo is a good mix because it makes the car feel light/short geared and responsive just because of its power delivery (will need BIG brakes though

 

[barks944]

I don't most of the things mark has suggested there would have a negative impact on the every day driving aspect of the 944. As long as you get some nice comfy seats and possibly leave the standard door cards on the car, for good noise cancelling, the car should retain all the aspects you like for daily driving but will have shed a few kg's.

I think I will shed the back seats, replace the fronts with some lighter but just as comfy ones, lexan rear hatch and maybe go as far as fibreglass wings and bonnet. I'd guess you could shed about 100kgs with that, anyone got a more accurate estimate?

 

[MarkK]

What i was thinking was a halfway house stripped out turbo,maybe the door cards are a step too far,but what i was thinking was a 951 rs touring type spec,slightly hardcore but still comfy?So you get most of the weightsaving but retain the comfort of carpets and soundproofing.I might do this to my red car one day.....[8|][]

 

[Frenchy]

Got Recaro CS seats in my Turbo S (same as 964 RS) really light and mega comfy, looking for a CS boot extender so i can bin the rear seats which never get used anyway.

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: DivineE

Ha ha I just watched those Fabspeed video's well I'm sold. That looks like a really really nice system, not entirely sure their car was driving right though. It seemed determined to push the front right like a Toyota Supra. 944's in my experience tend to stay straight at the front and just wiggle their tails behind them.

You guys got a link to these Fabspeed videos?

Actually our cars do have front end push sort of built in. This is what many racers try to dial out and why you see a lot of people trying to run a square setup or minimal stagger front to rear. That and all the other tuning methods with suspension.

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: MarkK

What i was thinking was a halfway house stripped out turbo,maybe the door cards are a step too far,but what i was thinking was a 951 rs touring type spec,slightly hardcore but still comfy?So you get most of the weightsaving but retain the comfort of carpets and soundproofing.

That sounds like a very interesting idea.

I wonder how much use you could make of the advances in tech since the 944 was built? As in, soundproofing nowadays must be lighter than it was 25 years ago, and materials science surely will mean that things like seats could be lighter for a given strength. And that's before you start looking at glass fibre (or even carbon fibre) panels.

Using a bit of thought, you could surely build something that has all the practicalities of a stock 944, but is significantly much lighter.


Oli.

 

[DivineE]

http://www.fabspeed.com/944Turbo.html

Scroll down to the 4" exhaust section. On 2nd viewing I realised this particular 'moment' is actually just a bad bit of driving because you can see the front wheels are not straight as the car swings through the straight ahead. Anyway they're good clips for an exhaust site and I like their design for a tennis ball to be rolled down the exhaust freely.

If you think of designing an exhaust to those requirements your naturally going to make it good for airflow with no sharp curves, no pinch points and no obstructions internally. It's a really good idea!

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

ORIGINAL: MarkK

What i was thinking was a halfway house stripped out turbo,maybe the door cards are a step too far,but what i was thinking was a 951 rs touring type spec,slightly hardcore but still comfy?So you get most of the weightsaving but retain the comfort of carpets and soundproofing.

That sounds like a very interesting idea.

I wonder how much use you could make of the advances in tech since the 944 was built? As in, soundproofing nowadays must be lighter than it was 25 years ago, and materials science surely will mean that things like seats could be lighter for a given strength. And that's before you start looking at glass fibre (or even carbon fibre) panels.

Using a bit of thought, you could surely build something that has all the practicalities of a stock 944, but is significantly much lighter.

Oli.

To all of these comments.. damn why do I have to love the standard seats so much! They're some of the best seats I've found for my back so far and so comfortable for a long drive. I feel a bit silly removing sound proofing when I'm leaving 26kg seats in the car! That said there is definitely some mileage in replacing the bonnet and front wings while I'm respraying the whole car. Where do you get the wings from?

its stupid as I have a friend who owns a fiber moulding company but he says he is trying to phase out doing any body panels as their 4kg seats are such a success in kit cars. So he won't make me any panels

 

[MarkK]

All the plastic panels i have are- the two front wings,bonnet,front pu is lightweight,plus rear bumper.The front wings when painted look brilliant the bonnet on the other hand looks like its grp its a big flat surface so you can see the ripples[&o]but hey its a race/track car.. i reckon on a super pretty road car it would not be up to scratch?Maybe if you pay for extra preparation??.EMC sourced it all for me.It was good value i thought..they can get the gaps pretty good too..
I reckon you would be suprised how comfy for example the cobras i have fitted are i have them in the xl size, also i am sure i have seen attachable/detachable pads that act as adjustable lumbar supports for your back..?These might help(The cobras are more comfy than GT3 seats)
If its (buckets)good enough for a GT3 its good enough for a 951,don't think numbers(KG) just pick up an electrical leather seat and then a bucket,the difference is huge,next thing for me is to lose as much as i am able to weightwise because its all very well having a lightish car but if i am a big huge heffer it defeats the object[]!Every little bit i lose has the effect of making the car quicker,so no more Ben and Jerrys for me[]

 

[Peter Empson]

ORIGINAL: MarkK

I reckon you would be suprised how comfy for example the cobras i have fitted are i have them in the xl size, also i am sure i have seen attachable/detachable pads that act as adjustable lumbar supports for your back..?These might help(The cobras are more comfy than GT3 seats)

I agree, I find mine very comfy even for quite long drives and find the hard back actually more comfortable, and of course when you start cornering hard your body has a lot less work to do to stay in the seat.

I'm also convinced that if you run much stiffer springs and dampers, then the standard seats relatively soft springing becomes a problem, my guess is that you start to move out of unison with the car.

 

[Backyard Racing]

ORIGINAL: DivineE

Hmm if the injectors continued firing with no spark every time the throttle was closed that should help cylinder cooling too[:-] I like that idea very much but could it be done with the standard ecu and how could you switch it on/off from in the car? Switchable maps controlled from a button identical except for that feature maybe? Has anyone done it?

But the fuel within the cylinder will still be consumed/burnt just at an irregular fashion/period. Im unsure if its possible to run such a method on gear change, and imo, i cant see it working effectively. You COULD do such a thing with a stock ecu in place (for spool from a standing start), ive never tried this on a 944, but you could fix a second ign pick up on the fly that could be activated by a switch say from your handbrake, lets the sytem retard, then switch back once handbrake is released, but this is old school methods from year ago, im sure there is such devices on the market to do such a thing.

Anyway its all things you dont need to look at, as ive said in my first post if you have constant lag problems on a track you have the wrong set/up to suit your needs.. As repeated by another poster use your gears..

Just ref to the tuning method of AFR`s, 11.5 for 7psi above, is a little rich, maybe more suitable for 25+psi.. But the rule of thumb is spot on. I just tend to tune more to 12.0 for anything up to 25psi, my such car is tuned at 11.8 and this is at 32psi of boost (MAP), running closer to the lean side if free BHP, and free hp is a must for what i do.. Is there a reason to run so rich near lower boost pressures with these cars eg running just over 7psi at 11.5? or is it the tuners safty margin.

So back the script, what ecu system do you plan to run ben?

Who is running standalone management? which make? and why? (more suited to the mapper or car)

What available base maps are around?

Thanks...

Rob

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: Backyard Racing

Is there a reason to run so rich near lower boost pressures with these cars eg running just over 7psi at 11.5? or is it the tuners safty margin.

Yep, it was recommended purely as a safety margin by the manufacturer of the Vitesse Piggyback system I use. As our fuel is lower in Octane than the top grade US race fuel that most tuned 944's use over there he recommends going no higher than 18psi boost and also erring on the side of caution by being slightly richer than optimum.

 

[Copperman05]

ORIGINAL: MarkK

next thing for me is to lose as much as i am able to weightwise because its all very well having a lightish car but if i am a big huge heffer it defeats the object[]!Every little bit i lose has the effect of making the car quicker,so no more Ben and Jerrys for me[]

I good point there, I once lost about 5kg of body weight when I had my Buell motorcycle, the difference in acceleration after the shed of weight was definately noticable, similar to the difference in a full and empty fuel tank, there is good reason most Moto GP guys are small and skinny and the shedded weight can make all the difference in lap times...

Edd

 

[DivineE]

I'm currently concentrating my thoughts on an idea of moving the turbo to the other side. I saw it some time ago on a drag racing 944 turbo that produced 700hp so it can't be all bad. Still planning to keep 4 equal length runners but keep them very short so the turbo is as close as possible to the head.. then a straight pipe as big as possible from the turbo to the back of the car with a screamer pipe on the wastegate to keep pressure down. Turbo theory says the bigger the pressure difference between the manifold (inlet into the turbo) and the exhaust outlet (turbo exit) the better the efficiency of the turbo. It sounds like good sense.

Also by moving the turbo to the other side of the engine I get a cooler intake manifold and more space to fit a bigger intake manifold because the standard one looks small compared to other big turbo cars. I think it might have been more to do with a lack of space than perfect design. Combined with a larger front mounted intercooler and throttle body the engine should get good breathing in and out.

If it works it should give a lovely bigger is better solution to my turbo set up and keep everythingvery simple which is my aim.

p.s. it's not going to look pretty under there with a big fiberglass box intake and heat wrapped manifolds but it should be pretty functional[]

 

[Backyard Racing]

You sure it will fit? there is very little room on that side? get some pics up, im interested to see... Unsure if equal lenght runners is needed on a basic style turbine housing imo, on a devided turbine setup up then yes or if your an N/A chap.. Log manifolds have proven over 500whp in some turbo setups... The turbo theory is right, no exhaust at all would be best, also tho to bare in mind to great ITP (inlet turbine pressure) can open a new window of problems of its own... The bigger the inlet plenum the better for high HP goals.. But whats your goals... thats the question... 350hp?? stock mani should be fine i would have thought...

Rob

 

[sawood12]

I think the only way you could get a decent sized turbo on the other side of the engine is to mount it in front of the engine and have the compressor outlet feeding into an IC that is mounted horizontally at the top of the engine Scooby style. Not the best location for airflow and heat soaking, then you still have the problem of the inlet manifold.

Of course the best thing to do in reality is to reverse the flow through the cylinder head and have an inlet manifold on the current exhaust side and mount a turbo where the inlet manifold currently is. But you're talking a major modification task there.

I think the effect of the inlet manifold on our cars is overrated. I'm pretty sure someone posted on there that they did back to back dyno tests of the stock manifold vs some aftermarket one that claims to flow better than a stock manifold and get you more HP, but in reality the tests showed very little difference and a worse shaped power/torque curve for a street car.

 

[333pg333]

Ben, bottom line, it can be done but you are going from only wanting to spend 10k to moving to double, triple, quadruple this cost. See my friend's 968turbo build. LOTS of custom stuff and the turbo positioning is still debatable. He hasn't finished yet but it's an ambitious project to say the least. If you had a left hand drive car then it's different. You can put the turbo somewhere near the normal rhd pedals or thereabouts, but this is on dedicated racecars.

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/968-forum/404449-thingo-968-turbo-project.html

My advice is to not worry about a bit of lag. With a modern bb turbo and sufficient improvements to the VE, you will have a fantastic car without doing what you've already done on the previous 3.2L AND the rest.

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

I think the only way you could get a decent sized turbo on the other side of the engine is to mount it in front of the engine and have the compressor outlet feeding into an IC that is mounted horizontally at the top of the engine Scooby style. Not the best location for airflow and heat soaking, then you still have the problem of the inlet manifold.

Of course the best thing to do in reality is to reverse the flow through the cylinder head and have an inlet manifold on the current exhaust side and mount a turbo where the inlet manifold currently is. But you're talking a major modification task there.

I think the effect of the inlet manifold on our cars is overrated. I'm pretty sure someone posted on there that they did back to back dyno tests of the stock manifold vs some aftermarket one that claims to flow better than a stock manifold and get you more HP, but in reality the tests showed very little difference and a worse shaped power/torque curve for a street car.

I agree with you Scott. It's a huge undertaking and really you might see a decent increase in spoolup but is it worth it?

The stock inlet manifold can outflow our stock or even modified heads, especially if it is worked on a little. The inlet you're referring to is the LR one which at best might be ok for a dedicated track car.

 

[MarkK]

Two of the quickest 944 turbos i have ever driven have both had the Lindsey racing inlet manifold(both fitted for a few years now) both drive great on road and track,both hovering around 400bhp.No problems or bad manners to report other than mine isn't quite as shiny as it was i must spend some time polishing it in spring.[]

 

[DivineE]

How dull! You're all right. I've stood looking at the space between the manifold and the chassis and there's no turbo going in there! The one I saw must have had extensive modification Looks like I'm going to have to be dull and stick to the standard manifold [8|]. I suppose it is more in line with my moderation is best theory. Thanks for the info on those wings. Pressure is off slightly as I've decided to hold off re-spraying until I'm happy the mechanical work is complete and everything on the shell is up to scratch. I've fitted a new set of wishbones but the replacement panels I ordered have been delayed till next week so there's nothing more to do once all the old panels have been cut out.

This gives me time to look into a carbon bonet and speak to EMC or Promax about glass fibre wings and rear bumper.

p.s. for those interested and that were reading the other threads on ECU function I discovered yesterday that the standard ECU can not only adjust ignition timing but that the 944t has individual knock sensors and can intelligently advance/retard the ignition in any of the cylinders independantly. Allowing it to decide whether only one cylinder needs to be retarded under knock conditions or all four depending on a number of factors! Not bad for one of the first production turbo's you could buy! It even has a short term overboost facility which detects if intake temperatures are safe and it has the right fuel then allows the car to run more than standard boost for short periods.[] Bet you didn't know that. Oh and the later cars actually had 274hp from the factory not 250 as stated which explains why people are still achieving over 250 on standard cars 20 years later.