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ProMAX Level 4

H

h4x0r7000

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Howdy, just wondering what parts are changed in this kit? and can you buy them separately? reason why is im considering the 400bhp in the porsche but cant afford to pay 8k at once. so i was thinking of buying a part at a time. Also, after having this kit fitted, what would you recommend changing? eg. any uprated parts?

Cheers
 
It's all bolt on stuff, it might just make 400bhp if you're lucky and it'll kill your torque. There's more than one way to skin a cat...
 
I think this is what Mark Koberle has in his car. If you do a search on this forum you might find his comments and feelings on the kit - I think he also has a testimonial on the Promax website. Also you can see his 400bhp dyno run on Rick Cannells league tables. IThe key hardware to the level 4 kit appears to be the larger turbo, injectors and the reworked cylinder head and uprated intake manifold. Unfortunately these items are pretty pricy which ever way you look at it. These parts are souced from Lindsey racing in the US so if you are planning a trip out to the states the favourable exchange rate means you might be able to save some cash, however by the time you add shipping and import tax you're probably not far away from the Promax prices. I managed to bag the exchange rate savings with my big black brake kit by bringing it back split between my case and two collegues cases, however it is not something i'd want to repeat and i'm not sure you'd get away with a cylinder head, huge turbo and intake manifold in your case!

I suppose you could go the large turbo route with a MAF kit as an interim measure before taking the plunge with the really expensive hardware. An alternative is the Vitesse kit stage 3 kit. You may not achieve 400bhp but you should easily get 350+ bhp and it can easily be adapted to suit any future mods you install. Still an expensive kit but you should be able to bring it in for around 2k for the MAF kit with the turbo on top of that.

I would think that by the time you get over 300bhp you probably need a brake upgrade and uprated suspension - certainly refreshed stock suspension at any rate (starting to really mount up now!!).

I've been considering my next upgrade but the cost of the ancilliary stuff, like wideband O2 sensors and a decent EBC is very surprising and adds another £1k+ to your total expenditure.

Might be worth having a chat with the Promax guys about the kit also. I've always found them very willing to talk candidly and honestly about thier products and what you should expect from them and don't give you the hard sell. I think I was in communication with them over a good 4 month period before taking he plunge with my KW suspension and never got the feeling that they were getting a bit peed off with all the chat and questions without actually buying anything.
 
Correction - the Vitesse stage 3 kit includes the turbo. It costs around $3500 plus shipping but you'll also need to upgrade injectors. Gets very good reviews though.
 
OK, to balance Scott's post consider this...

Would you rather spend £8k on a load of bolt-on bits and stress the hell out of your current bottom end with no rebuild nor anything more than a look at the bores when the head is off, or would you rather have a larger capacity bottom end freshly built to give you the same power and more torque with less stress on the components?
 
Not wishing to raise old issues on here.....

Promax have had problems with a lot of members on this forum. I'm happy to say that the problems were not with Andy or Rodger, and there are plenty of people on here that will be happy to recommend them. Also consider talking to Jon Mitchell and Simon Peckham if you want to research the market before you commit.

Was that tactful enough to please everyone? [8|]
 
One of the issues in going for big numbers in stages is the individual components don't work well by themselves.

Big turbo - needs big injectors - needs mapping. A big turbo will kill an engine without big injectors but big injectors won't atomise as effectively if they haven't got the engine to suck the big charge.

If you haven't the facility to modify the mapping yourself you will need a new chip at each intermediate stage. That said there are so many conversions around that one way or another you should be able to find the necessary intermediate maps preblown onto chips as you go.

Modifying engines changes their design parameters and there is no definite list of you must replace this or that over and above what you would do on an old turbo engine any way. It might blow up even then - as Fen can testify (nice to see you back BTW).

If you mod it you run the risk of breaking it. All you can hope is that if it does go pop it doesn't take too many of your nice new (and expensive) components with it.
 
Might be worth going for one of the "lower" kits if you choose to go the Promax route and see what you make of it before shelling out mega bucks on a level 4.

I got my level 2 kit a year ago and was very happy with the difference it made - so much so am currently considering a level 3 kit and as I have already had some of the required bits fitted in the level 2 (eg the dualport wastegate) this will end up as a saving on the level 3. Have had some initial contact with the Promax boys about it but will certainly have more before taking the plunge. Plus as Scott says there are implications for suspension and brakes to consider.

Fens quite right too - there are other systems and methods different people have used to get the sort of levels of power associated with the level 4 kit (and others for that matter). I dont know how they compare budget wise nor am I an engineer to be able to advise as to their relative merits but would certainly advise talking to various folk to get as broad a view as possible before alighting on your chosen system.
 
I'm with Fen on the merits of a bespoke big bore engine - but that ain't cheap.

Something to also consider is all the right bits don't necessarily make the figures. WUF stunned us all in the early days with how little it was producing (as did the Land Glider). All the right bits were there but unless they are working together they work against each other much more.

WUF after, seemingly, ages suddenly started producing the number that we all expected. The Land Glider went pop before realising its full potential.

Marks car achieved a glory run but we may never know if it could reproduce that. Jon and Simon go right back to basics with and engine and rebuild it from the ground up. Knowing Simons attention to detail I have every confidence that if he built and engine with "standard" blueprinted parts it would be impressive - as already proven. If you then up the capacity and mate that to chosen components then the results are going to be good. Also - as it is a new engine with all past wear variables taken out - it should be repeatable time and time again.
 
Cheers for all the comments guys this is what i was after. if you can recommend better parts then what would be great. i dont mind spending the money at the end of the day. i dont mind spending the 8k, i just cant afford to spend it all at once. like i prefer to buy the turbo one month, buy an exhaust next etc etc.

My plans at the mo is to get the car moving again. its been sitting in the garage for awhile now and only just start to work on it today.

My plans were to get a bigger turbo, full system exhaust, the bore pipes and induction kit. if you guys can recommend me some necessary parts, that work be great :D

the project is going to be a long term one. looking over a year at least.
 
It's a 220 then.

John is absolutely right in everything he says regarding tuning. If I had my time again (and let's face it, I do really just as soon as I decide to open my wallet again) I'd start with a lareger capacity bottom end with custom pistons and forged rods. For 8k you could do that though I don't know how many of the premier division components you could get to go with it on that budget, but even so you'd have a torquier engine putting out a lump more power also at moderate boost. By contrast the ProMax kit for example relies heavily on the inlet manifold to aid top end breathing to make the figures and as a result sacrifices loads of torque low down (as can be plainly seen from the plots on Rick's site mentioned above).

Also consider your base car... Forget the engine as the 220 unit is arguably better than the later cars with the likelihood of having forged rods, but your chassis has smaller brakes, no LSD (unless it was optionally specified? Code 220 from memory), unstrengthened 1st and 2nd ratios, thinner drive shafts and no gearbox oil cooler. None of that is ideal for a big numbers base car in comparison with the later cars and even they appear to need bigger brakes than their standard ones that are bigger than yours when you turn the knob up to 11. With an '86 you can't even easily add the later car components unless you replace the whole suspension because of the offset change in '87 to accommodate ABS.

I'm not saying don't do it or you have the wrong car, but please don't spend all your money in the engine bay trying to get to 400bhp with no torque so it doesn't feel quick (relative to one with torque in proportion anyway) only to find you eat gearboxes or can't stop the thing.
 
The first thing you need to do is to make sure the current engine is up to the task and if it hasn't been changed before you need a fresh headgasket as the umpteen years old original will soon go south if it has to handle more power.

If you wanted to gradually increase power in stages then it is entirely possible to go up in stages but there will be some duplication (which I'm sure you could come to some agreement over). The level2 with wastegate, controller, chips, FPR and dump valve will be a good start and all those items can be retained as you move onwards. The level3 takes it further with a turbo, MAF and injectors but when you go to level4 there is a change over to a MAP sensor.

I'm sure MarkK will spot this thread soon and he can tell you about how it drives but I do know it goes (and sounds) like a rocket as we have done a fair few miles side by side together [;)]

Don't forget about other ancilliaries like clutch, suspension and brakes [:eek:]
 
On B roads the balance of brakes and suspension is far more important than power.

A few years back a bunch of us went to Scotland. We were stunned how well Sians 924S kept up considering it had half the power of several of the cars on the trip - it had good balance and handling though.

I have posted elsewhere about the cost of Beakys suspension/brake upgrades. Expensive, but have had far more impact on driveabillity and performance than the 50% power hike.

Having driven 944s with small brakes and soggy suspension I would respectfully suggest if you doubled the HP of your current car, and did nothing else, you would crash.

Do the brakes and suspension first then go looking for more power.
 
I feel a little compelled to add my experiences modifying these cars. I don't have any experience with the Lindsey kits but their products are generally well thought of. Having said that I (yet again) agree with Fen. Firstly a number on paper that may or may not be achieved to the detriment of driveability is not really that useful. Though at this point I may add that I don't think that having large turbochargers neccessarily means that you can't enjoy the car. I don't really see the point in having a totally linear power delivery on a turbo'd car. To me that seems almost a contradiction of terms. If I wanted such a response I would get a V8 and do the conversion or just buy a different car. I want to feel a little lag followed by that intoxicating push in the back when she cuts in.
Just to give you an idea, I have a Vitesse Stage 5 turbo rated about 730hp, I have a modified head that actually produces the numbers that others claim to ( and these have been compared on a proper bench flow) but is suited more to the top end, a very big cam, full 3" exhaust, and when I was running the car in on .5 bar and 4500rpms with the timing completely out on the cam (in other words the car should have ran like an absolute DOG!!) the car was fantastic. It felt like my old engine that was about 300hp crank on 1.4 bar.
Now as Fen alluded to, I have also gone up in capacity to 3.0L and that's what I attribute the bulk of these glowing words to during the run in period. In other words for $8k (is this in GBP's ?) I would think that you could get something more solid that you could add to. In other words you could get a long block assembled and shipped from the US that would cost you less, have 3.0L capacity and be able to add to that over time. You would be starting from a bullet proof bottom end. Or you could buy the components like Darton Sleeves ( I would suggest dry ones), maybe JE pistons *, Arrow rods (UK) and have some machinist do the instal, have your head cleaned up and go from there. That would cost you much less than $8k. The other issue that has been touched on is of course you can't start running around in a higher performance car if you can't turn or stop. There is a lot to be considered when doing upgrades. Put a plan together and really do some research. This is the 'Domino theory' incarnate!!! It is very easy to get on a slippery slide. Just ask me how. [:mad:][:mad:][:mad:]
Otherwise get a good chip, fix your brakes, upgrade your suspension, get a dual port wastegate, boost controller and have some cheaper fun. Afterall that is why we bought these cars in the first place.

*If you wind up doing the sleeved block be very careful to research the piston to cylinder wall clearance needed. While dealing in increments too small to see, there are mistakes to be made that can be a total pain...again ask me how. [:eek:][:eek:][:eek:]
Good luck in your pursuits.

Patrick.
 
ORIGINAL: John Sims

On B roads the balance of brakes and suspension is far more important than power.

A few years back a bunch of us went to Scotland. We were stunned how well Sians 924S kept up considering it had half the power of several of the cars on the trip - it had good balance and handling though.

I have posted elsewhere about the cost of Beakys suspension/brake upgrades. Expensive, but have had far more impact on driveabillity and performance than the 50% power hike.

Having driven 944s with small brakes and soggy suspension I would respectfully suggest if you doubled the HP of your current car, and did nothing else, you would crash.

Do the brakes and suspension first then go looking for more power.
Click to expand...
Couldn't agree with you more here John. Make the thing stop and turn before making it faster is the number one Golden rule. Of course this will make the car faster anyway.
 
Cheers for all the advice again [:)] ok, if the car passes its mot, what would you recommend buying first? or a small list of what you would buy to upgrade the car?
 
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