ProMAX Level 4

[AndrewS]

Hi Gareth,

Easiest way to make the car faster (and it costs nothing) is to remove the spare wheel, tools and anything else that adds weight to the car (that is removable and you can do without). Other than that, a boost pressure relief valve/controller, wastegate shims, chips and a 3.0 bar regulator will get you close to 300bhp for £300 or less. After that, more power requires an exponential financial investment as the bhp increases :-(

As to what to do, it all depends on what you want to achieve. If you use the car on the track a lot, the best investment you can make (to go faster) is in tyres. After that, perhaps a look at suspension and brakes and then possibly engine output. For pure road use, you may want to take a different approach.

The red car mentioned earlier in the thread (ProMAX L4) had all the chassis work attended to previously (brakes, suspension and tyres) and has covered many miles since the conversion (including numerous track days in the UK and Europe). It does have superb suspension and brakes enabling it to handle the additional power fairly easily. It remains to this day the fastest car I have ever driven.

Whatever you choose to do, the 944 Turbo responds very well to performance tuning and is the basis for a seriously fast car whichever approach you take.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: AndrewS

....... Other than that, a boost pressure relief valve/controller, wastegate shims, chips and a 3.0 bar regulator will get you close to 300bhp for £300 or less..........

Not with the baby turbo it won't []. It might get over 250 but will trail off very quickly.

 

[MarkK]

Car runs great thanks not missed a beat,how many tuned cars run so reliably???,it IS monster quick and gets used regularly, it is currently back at Porsche having a cosmetic refinish as it is stonechipped from all the use,even used it to see customers this year all over the country as a rep-mobile.Car hit 400bhp on THE Dyno everyone wanted,if i remember only Rick's monster did that.Bit suprised with some of the comments.

 

[Diver944]

Don't worry Mark you'll still have the biggest grin when you floor the pedal in one of only two 944T's in this country that have made it over the magical 400 mark on the miserly Rollers of Truth [] (the other one is red too)

Coming back to Patricks £8k figure saying it will be better spent elsewhere to get a beefier bottom end, let's remember that in this country we still have to pay quite a bit for rock solid engineering (and rightly so). The article on my engine in 911&P World finally let the cat out of the bag and to have a blueprinted 3.2 like mine you are looking at £10,500 just for the engine in a crate. I still think that the £8k Promax kit fitted represents good value for money, it clearly states they guarantee a 400bhp engine and yes it may make it's power a bit higher up the rev range than a 3.0 or 3.2 but I've driven alongside this car with MarkK and it is chuffing fast [8D]

Maybe after the next Dyno Day we also ought to hold a UK 1/4 mile day like the Rennlisters are doing so we can visibly see the way different cars make their power (now where is my NOS kit )

 

[edh]

Get it running well first - make sure it's holding boost, many don't. Then think about how much faster you want to go.

As Andrew says, upping the boost is the place to start. It's cheap, makes a huge difference, and it will also feel a lot faster as you get a big shot of torque when the boost kicks in. If you want to go much faster, sell the 220 & buy a 250 for starters.

But you don't need to worry about spending the rest of that £8k - these cars have a way of emptying your wallet []

......belts, waterpump, brakes, suspension, sills, headgasket, fuel & brake lines, clutch, gearbox, aircon, - that's about £6-7k there []

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: MarkK

Car runs great thanks not missed a beat,how many tuned cars run so reliably???,it IS monster quick and gets used regularly, it is currently back at Porsche having a cosmetic refinish as it is stonechipped from all the use,even used it to see customers this year all over the country as a rep-mobile.Car hit 400bhp on THE Dyno everyone wanted,if i remember only Rick's monster did that.Bit suprised with some of the comments.

Which, the low torque ones? Why? 333ft lb is low torque compared to the power.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Bit suprised with some of the comments.

I'm not......

The reason I added my post to this thread was because I'm not keen to have another bunfight on this forum.

Fact is, many members have a problem with the various Promax businesses and tend to react with red-rag-to-a-bull replies.

I can only speak from the feedback I get, but I've not had a single problem with either Andy or Rodger and the work they do. Speak to them direct and I'm sure they'll be happy to help.

 

[AndrewS]

Hi Paul,

I like the standing 1/4 mile idea - that would be great fun! Any ideas about a suitable dyno venue for future dyno days?

How's your car coming on? Will you be ready for Silvertsone by August 7th at all? There is an RMA Paddock Club event all day (serious exotica) followed by the Goldtrack evening event. I'm doing all that I can to make sure I am there (late afternoon and evening). I saw your video on YouTube - ouch!! Damage didn't look too bad - hope to see you back on track soon.

With respect to your other points on costs; I can confirm similar from my own experience. To demonstrate the point my previous 2.8 (now in John Daly's ownership) cost a lot more than Mark K's car did - but you can guess which one is faster? However, some of the developments used on Mark K's car would liberate more performance from the 2.8 car.

Its interesting to put some of these upgrades into perspective - for example: good tyres will take 6 seconds off a flying lap at Castle Combe. 100+ bhp made a difference of only 3 seconds (on a 944 Turbo) at the same circuit. Tyres cost less than £600, +100bhp on a 310bhp 944 Turbo - a little more! ;-)

Obviously priorities are different for a road car - but it just shows that you have to give careful thought as to where modification expenditure is best placed. Research and a plan can save a lot of time, error and cost and get you to your objective quicker. In the end - its the driving that matters and driving is far better with a well rounded, carefully considered performance package on what is a very capable car to begin with.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[Fen]

I'm trying to be unbiased, but the fact is the ProMax level 4 kit IS a load of bolt-on parts for an unrebuilt bottom end that gets the power by stressing the 2.5 hard AND that makes poor torque relative to that made by all the other big numbers cars I have seen. Rick's car proves that a 2.5 can do 400bhp with 10%+ more torque than Mark's

Given that I have been there and bought the rather unusual large aluminium ornament through stressing a 2.5 bottom end a little too far - that I had rebuilt by the way - (not using the ProMax kit should anyone get the wrong end of the stick) then I strongly recommend starting with a larger capacity and less stressed bottom end to make the numbers. That goes for whoever is the tuner.

 

[sawood12]

I'll vouch for Andy and Roger also. They have both invested a hell of alot of time with me and my incesant quetions before, during and after my KW installation.

Fen is also right in that there is two ways to skin a cat. Paul has proved that the proper way to do it is to go to a larger capacity and who knows what the potential of his engine would be if he were to go the whole hog - 500bhp?, but the cost is prohibitive to most therefore all we are left with are off-the-shelf solutions. For me currently the kit i've got my eye on is the Vitesse L3 kit which includes big turbo, MAF kit and piggy back controller and a ton of happy customers in the US all claiming big power figures circa 350bhp, which to be honest I think is more than enought for the 944 unless you start investing even more money on differential mods and bigger wheels to maintain traction and actually allow you to use all those extra horses you've invested your hard earned cash on. I think $3500 with a couple of hundred dollars on top for shipping is good value for a proved kit. It's the law of diminishing returns - £1750 will get you a good 350bhp (aparently) but you will have to spend another £6k+ to get that extra 50bhp!

 

[AndrewS]

ORIGINAL: edh
...If you want to go much faster, sell the 220 & buy a 250 for starters.

The 250bhp does have some benefits in the running gear department, but many '86 cars did have the oil cooler (and brake cooling ducts) and those smaller brakes are fine for the road if in good shape (and are a lot lighter).

Engines are effectively very similar with the earlier car having the advantage of forged (rather than cast) connecting rods. The bottom end is actually very strong. We have a client running a 400bhp race car (2.5) with no issues (Porsche Open). Lindsey Racing have achieved good results with the standard bottom end and we have never had difficulties tuning standard 2.5 block cars.

The 220 car has the disadvantage of the smaller turbined K26/6 turbocharger. Hence, boost will tail off a little earlier than the equivalent K26/8 equipped car. The K26/6 spins up faster and is less prone to lag - so, a possible advantage for some. However, both turbochargers only deliver 0.75 bar boost as the maximum on the original standard car. The later car is programmed to hold onto peak boost for longer (hence the extra 30bhp). On the 220 boost drops at 5,000 rpm to 0.5 bar (from the factory).

With the ProMAX L4, it does not matter what base you start with (400+ bhp is guaranteed with either car) - but it is wise to consider your overall objectives before deciding what is best to do first.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[Riverside]

ORIGINAL: AndrewS
With the ProMAX L4, it does not matter what base you start with (400+ bhp is guaranteed with either car) - but it is wise to consider your overall objectives before deciding what is best to do first.

How much extra on top of the L4 would a rebuilt bottom end cost? As Fen rightly points out anyone considering this package would want to start with the best base engine they could. My motor's done 160k & is okay as standard but probably pretty tired & if pushed might pop. I'm sure you'd check the unchanged parts over but if (hypothetically) I wanted to do this but my bottom end wasn't up to scratch is there another option?

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: AndrewS

Hi Paul,

I like the standing 1/4 mile idea - that would be great fun! Any ideas about a suitable dyno venue for future dyno days?

So do I !!!

I will be back in Ireland early august and cant wait to be re-united with my car

( family and friends included too of course!! haha ). I didn't get to the uk last year with the 2.8 due to work and the repaint but I'll be there this year for certain. I would love to meet the guys on this forum at a dyno day and kick tyres, talk bullshit etc.

Andrew - I'm interested big time in liberating more power from the 2.8. What power gains to you think I will get from what mods?

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: Fen

I'm trying to be unbiased, but the fact is the ProMax level 4 kit IS a load of bolt-on parts for an unrebuilt bottom end that gets the power by stressing the 2.5 hard

Fen - I know the topic of discussion is the ProMax level 4 kit but it's a bit unfair to single promax out as the only supplier of " bolt on parts ". A lot of people on here rave about the " bolt on parts " that another vendor ( Vittesse ) sells, I dont hear anybody saying the vittesse stuff is just " bolt on parts ". The truth is, unless people have a huge amount of money to throw at these cars, and dont get me wrong, I'd love to be able to afford the kind of 3.2 L motor Paul has in LiL but the reality is most people dont and the kits promax and others sells offer quite good value for money when all things considered?

Thats my 0.02 euro worth!

 

[Fen]

Hence the reason I closed the same sodding post you quoted with "That goes for whoever is the tuner."

The original post asked about ProMax level 4, had it been asking about a kit of parts from Vitesse or 9xx anybody else my feelings and response would be the same in terms of bolt on parts on the untouched bottom end. Ditto if I had seen figures for a car fitted with the kit and thought it made headline bhp at the expense of torque.

Of course we need bolt on parts, my point is that you need a good base to bolt them to, ideally larger capacity (which I'd have thought you of all people would have agreed with) and I'd strongly advise attending to that before spending more than the car is worth on bolt-ons.

Are you actually trying to start an argument?

FWIW I agree with virtually everything Andrew has said in this thread, even that there are a few cars running high outputs on the 2.5 bottom end, some not even rebuilt, but I'd caution that by saying it is literally a handful and therefore even if mine is the only one that has gone bang (which it isn't) then that's still significant within the small sample of cars we have to base statistics on.

 

[Hilux]

On B roads the balance of brakes and suspension is far more important than power.

A few years back a bunch of us went to Scotland. We were stunned how well Sians 924S kept up considering it had half the power of several of the cars on the trip - it had good balance and handling though.

I have posted elsewhere about the cost of Beakys suspension/brake upgrades. Expensive, but have had far more impact on driveabillity and performance than the 50% power hike.

Having driven 944s with small brakes and soggy suspension I would respectfully suggest if you doubled the HP of your current car, and did nothing else, you would crash.

Do the brakes and suspension first then go looking for more power.

I absolutely concur.

Better suspension and brakes is like adding 50 bhp in driveability.

I am not sure what the benefit is in having much more than 350bhp in a 951? I may be `older` than some (most?) but my car is f**kin quick now and will be quicker when I can be arsed to spend a bit more on it. I`ve the KWV3 and W/meister ARB`s, the brakes are medium blacks with PF pads and it has totally transformed the car. The performance upgrade money will be relatively cheap for the performance gained I feel.

With 350 bhp thats about 290 bhp per tonne, with 300 bhp (my aim) thats about 250 bhp per tonne with torque to match. Theres not a lot on the road that will match that performance anyway.

I always remember with my old Westfield that 200bhp was more than adequate. A mate of mine has a 1000bhp Cobra, totally undriveable on more than 1/4 throttle.

Someone really must take me out in a serious 951 to explain the relatively small incremental benefit versus expense, please!! [8D][8D][8D][8D][8|][8|][8|]

 

[AndrewS]

ORIGINAL: 422bhp944
Andrew - I'm interested big time in liberating more power from the 2.8. What power gains to you think I will get from what mods?

Hi John,

Great to hear from you?

We would need to baseline your car to start with (WRC have gone now, hence we will need another dyno - which we do have locally). We will then need to study the torque and power curves and work out where we can make changes to give you a noticeable increase in peak power and torque.

As your car is 2.8 litres already and you have some other power liberating hardware (including your MAP system) - I am confident we can take you car to another performance dimension.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[John Sims]

Some very valid points there Paul.

My race Westie only had 160 bhp but, without a Lim Slip (due to formula regs), often that was too much. The whole driving experience was balancing the available traction over power or more accurately torque. The previous Formula Ford engine didn't have the same torque so you could plant your foot mid corner without issue. Near 50% increase in bhp and probably 2x the torque didn't make a spectacular difference to lap times. As Andrew said - tyres did. The increase in power and torque did make it a whole lot more frightening though - and far more able to break other components in the drive train.

Ultimately bhp has a lot to do with Willy Wagging and has little to do with drivabillity. Torque is what matters in the real world. A standard Turbo will have enough power to achieve 130+ mph, more if the road is long enough (more than fast enough for most). It is the torque that dictates how quickly you will get there. It is torque that dictates acceleration, power just pushes the car through the air.

You could have 1,000 bhp, which might sustain a 944 at 200mph ,but if that had small torque there might never be a piece of road long enough to realise the top speed.

 

[333pg333]

I can only reiterate that there's no substitute for cubic inches. My car when I bought it was pretty quick. I got some Vitesse AFM chips, Lindsey dpwg, and an Apexi ebc. I would run it to about 22psi and it went pretty well. When I ran the new engine as previously mentioned at much lower boost and rpms it felt as quick. Maybe it's too hard to go up in cc's, but maybe not. Just do a little research and you may find that it's not out of reach and you will be struck with the difference. Paul's car really only had part of it's potential unlocked. It could have easily been a 500hp car with some more $$$ of course. [][]
The other problem with such hp and tq (which should also be up in the similar levels to the hp) is other things need attention. I am in the process of investigating 996 axles and CV's to fit our cars. Will it never end???

 

[AndrewS]

Hi All,

John makes some interesting points.

It is important to understand where the peak torque occurs. I can use my own car as an example. Peak torque on my car appears about 1000 rpm lower down compared to Mark K's. Mark K's car makes maximum torque at about 5,000 rpm which is where you need it for the fastest acceleration - this is one of the reasons why his car accelerates so quickly. If you drive it - you would be amazed how fast it is. It's also quite tractable as the torque builds very smoothly. When on the track - power (which is a multiple of torque and RPM) is more important than low down torque. This is equaly aplicable for a standing 1/4 mile or 0-100mph sprint.

Its equally important to understand that the way a car drives is more than just the sum of its numbers. How smooth the power and torque curves are can be an indication - but you can only get the full picture by driving the car. Having gobs of torque at low rpm is great for leisurely overtaking on the road (as with a Turbo Diesel road car), but it is of no use on the track or for accelerating fast through the gears. Again, look at a Turbo Diesel - awesome torque, but low power (as the revs run out at just over 4,000 rpm). Petrol cars are usually quicker accelerating (0-60) than their diesel equivalents.

Over a standing quarter mile - Mark K's car will be very fast as each gear change allows you to exploit the engines maximum torque. On the circuit, you are at 4,500rpm and above much of the time - hence again; Mark K's car will be very fast on track. My own car would be much better on the circuit if I could move the max torque up 1,000 rpm. Currently, it's torque figure looks high (290lbft), but the car is slow (270bhp) compared to Mark K's. When I am driving on the track, my maximum torque is probably 50lbft shy of the maximum at much lower rpm.

So, yes torque is important - but power is more important in a sports car. You need to have good torque to generate the power to begin with. Get a ride in Mark K's car and you will understand what I'm talking about.
[]

Regards,
Andrew