Race Car Build

PSH · Jul 3, 2015

944 man said:
I'm familiar with CSCC Andy - my father raced in it two or three years ago! It was, of course, a light-hearted dig at the club for excluding the giant topping, but also very cheaty, 944 Turbos from the championship.

Hi Simon

I used to follow the club championship pretty closely when 944T's were allowed, mostly thanks to Andrew Sweetenham who used to race in the series and kindly provided me with entry tickets and paddock passes...there was no cheating that i'm aware of...engine output was checked with iirc a max of 260bhp being allowed, the engine itself wasn't allowed to be modified ....suspension, lightening and tyres were allowed. I used to love watching Chris Heeley's progress during the races, a top driver and one who could beat anything that Porsche could throw at him, including the 996 GT3's. Alas Porsche were finding it hard to admit that their modern cars couldn't beat the 944T's or indeed some of the other older classes, they tried many things before outright banning.....weight penalties, wider tyres etc on the 911's and still a 944T not only could win but often did. I recall seeing Andrew on pole at Silverstone, now that takes some doing as the 944T's main advantage was mid range power once they had done a few laps in the race after the turbo was beginning to generate the heat needed for max performance...it was common to hear the commentators chat during the race watching the 944T's, making comments such as..' aha...the 944T's are beginning to get warmed up and coming through the field now as they usually do'....' nothing can match the 944T in midrange' and... 'as for the corners they are all over the other classes'.... Classic example was at Brands.. iirc Pete Chambers was in the lead in his 996, Tim rice close behind in his 944T with Chris Heeley charging up from behind to the last bend before the main straight ( sorry forgot the name). Tim was clearly faster in the bend and pushing Pete's 996, Chris (IMHO one of the best drivers in the series) flung his car into the bend and drifted past both of them to take the lead...that shows how good these cars really are.

The 944T's and the other older classes were finally banned after still beating a field that consisted mainly of GT3's, iirc the final season Keith won in his 964RS, Chris I believe was 4th, however when looking at the results Chris had the most wins but also had the most DNF's due to breakdowns, usually it would be a driveshaft..again iirc there were around 14 brand new GT3's in that final season before it was GT3's only from then onwards

PCGB motorsport lost a lot after that period or should I say it did for me, I haven't been to a race meet for probably 13 years ( not counting Le Mans), today I enjoy reading of Pat's car down under beating today's highly modified 911's of all types and also the jap cars.. very impressive indeed and again testimony that this 30 year old car is still a force to be reckoned with and probably always will be......

Anyway sorry for the long reply Simon, some new owners may not realise just what type of car they are driving...keep hold of them guys and enjoy.....

btw Chris used to race a 911 2.7RS before moving on to the 944T..or should that be 'up'?....

kind regards

Pete

Neil Haughey · Jul 3, 2015

Switchable maps or dual ECUs Pete. The story has become pretty legendary by now, I have heard two variations on it which may likely have been related to two completely different cars. One was a guy driving off in the car after the main ECU had been taken out for inspection (I would have ROFPL seeing that one) the other story was a 2nd map which switched in when the front wheels are turning and hence wouldn't have been active when the car was on the dyno.

PSH · Jul 3, 2015

Neil Haughey said:
Switchable maps or dual ECUs Pete. The story has become pretty legendary by now, I have heard two variations on it which may likely have been related to two completely different cars. One was a guy driving off in the car after the main ECU had been taken out for inspection (I would have ROFPL seeing that one) the other story was a 2nd map which switched in when the front wheels are turning and hence wouldn't have been active when the car was on the dyno.

Interesting Neil...I haven't heard of this before, I don't deny that it's possible, just that it's news to me.....for some reason i doubt that Chris would have been involved and I have spoken to Wayne a number of times in the past referring to Chris's car and it's never come up in conversation and he did all of the mapping for his car...mind you would he say anything... now that's another question....

Pete

944 man · Jul 3, 2015

Brief rushed reply, but WS was definitely behind the moving map car. I was told recently that it was triggered by the front ABS sensor, so not active when the car was tested on a rolling road...

Wayne is a friend of my uncle and my father to a lesser degree, so I hope to find out what other tricks were utilised at some point in the not too distant future.

351Escort · Jul 3, 2015

Thanks again for the thought worthy comments and the ... it now seems legendary stories. It all makes for great reading.

Keep the comments coming and i will post an update on the car over the weekend.

Darren

PSH · Jul 3, 2015

I guess that this shouldn't surprise me..not that i think he's that type of character, just that he certainly has the knowledge and ability to design such a thing, I honestly put him at no.1 for tuning the 944T...I recall the last time my car was at his place in Rochdale, he had been up all night working on a customers 650BHP rally car, a mini ....the standalone management system that came with the car couldn't produce the power that the customer wanted so Wayne built an ECU from scratch that night and had it running the morning that I turned up, very impressive....once my car is finished I will go back to him if he's still around as I trust his abilities, if not all tuning will have to be done on the road with my son...could be exciting...

Pete

edit: sorry Darren.. got a little side tracked...my apologies....

351Escort · Jul 3, 2015

Not a problem Pete

All makes for interesting reading.

Darren.

944 man · Jul 3, 2015

When my father last spoke to him he had his wife decorating in the workshop because someone from Mugen Honda was coming to see him. It was Mr Mugen himself or at least, Nagaosa San! It shows the high regard that the man is held in.

Neil Haughey · Jul 3, 2015

He is still tuning racing Porsches, many of the cars on the grid in recent years had mapping done by Wayne.

PSH · Jul 3, 2015

944 man said:
When my father last spoke to him he had his wife decorating in the workshop because someone from Mugen Honda was coming to see him. It was Mr Mugen himself or at least, Nagaosa San! It shows the high regard that the man is held in.

very interesting Simon and rightly deserved...good to hear that he's doing well...looking forward to meeting up with him again...it's been a while...think it was 2007 when i saw him last. He always remembers me as I just remind him that the first time we met iirc 1999 he drove down to me at Pinewood studios to collect my car and take it to Power engineering in Uxbridge as he had hired their Dyno . It was an interesting meet, he bought with him via trailer one of the Porsche Championship cup cars that he was responsible for on his way to Brands Hatch for a race that weekend, left the 911 at the studio's and then took my car to PE on the trailer. This was just after i had fitted the DPW with MBC so very early into the 'extra boost' hunt..car made 282 bhp that day, it was another 8 years before he had it again for it's 368bhp setup...the next one should be even more interesting....

Pete

Neil Haughey · Jul 4, 2015

Following on from what Simon and I were talking about earlier one should note there are two variations on how to do the door bars. These are shown at section K in the MSA blue book at Drawing No. 12 (g) and (h). The option (h) makes an X across the door aperture but unfortunately the front top part of the X sits right up near the dash and most definitely impedes access. Its interesting that at section K1.2.2 the MSA state that the cage design must not impede access which is odd given that many current designs very much impede access. I have seen the option (g) form of door bars in an old 911, Custom Cages have it as part of their historic 911 cage design and personally I would prefer that design in pretty much any car because the top bar will sit fairly low at the front. Its their "Porsche 911 - Straight Door Bars & Sill Bar - Historic" option on their website.

I would have posted a link but they don't seem to work from their website.

Cater_Racer · Jul 5, 2015

We used a single bar across the door, set quite low the height matches the top of the seat sides.

With the CSCC requiring a pit stop and driver change/driver in and out mid race, a speedy exit and entry are needed.

Neil Haughey · Jul 5, 2015

Very important reminder there Jerry, I recognise that seat as a Cobra Suzuka. I highly recommend the Cobra seats as the fabric and cushion system is superb and amazingly hard wearing, as opposed to that on Sparco seats which is plain garbage IMHE. My first seat was a Sparco and it wore so badly during the cars build that I never actually raced with it, £300 down the toilet. I would also advise as well to stick to seats like that one with the high sides as they stop your legs from bashing into the cage if the worst happens. I would however make an addition Jerry and its something a scrut asked me to do a few years back and that is to put some cage padding above the front foot of the cage. He told me that there had been incidents of people suffering ankle/lower leg injuries in a crash where their ankle had whacked that bar.

Man I need to get back in my car again, since this time last year I have sat in the thing and started it up 3 times and that is it.

Neil Haughey · Jul 5, 2015

One last point on all this and its only IMHO. The FIA and MSA regs are littered with contradictions when it comes to their practical application to us amateurs for pretty much all kinds of motorsport. A simple example is what is deemed fully FIA compliant cages, one can see these on the Custom Cages website. These designs work great if one is a pro racer building a BTCC car where the seat is mounted way back in the car, custom peddle box and steering wheel 1 foot back from normal position but most regs for club series/championships are based on production car principles and typically preclude such stuff. The governing bodies need to ask does all this stuff make sense? Just look at lifing and homologation rules for clothing as an example, I down loaded the FIA 15 page document on it last night. It would seem that my 6 year old FIA 8856-2000 compliant suit is fully legal/homologated for use anywhere but it will not be after 2017 anywhere as everything pre 2013 will loose its homologation then (MSA state the same standard which and item can not meet if its homologation is removed). I did a google search last night and found precisely 0 discussion anywhere on this detail. Its worse than that though as dates are only clearly visible on suits but the standard applied to shoes, socks, gloves etc. I just love the FIA. Most of advice on the net btw on the above topic is contradictory to what the FIA say in black and white. Document is here:

[link=http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/FIA%20Homologation%20Regulations%20for%20Safety%20Equipment_3.pdf]http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/FIA%20Homologation%20Regulations%20for%20Safety%20Equipment_3.pdf[/link]

Basically boils down to whether or not manufacturers will resubmit old lines of clothing that they probably don't make any more to be re-homologated? No chance IMHO. I can see this one needing clarification over the next couple of years as it effects a lot of people in the UK.

944 man · Jul 5, 2015

Theyre lifing clothing?

Will the MSA be adopting this or will it be for international events only?

944 man · Jul 5, 2015

I downloaded Appendix J 1990 last night, and tried on my AWS race suit. Hardly ever worn, but made in 2007. If they're lifing clothing now, will I be able to return it to AWS and have them inspect it and add a couple of years, as you could with seats?

Neil Haughey · Jul 5, 2015

As I said Simon I think this is an area that will need clarifying with the MSA as the FIA document is pretty clear and all the blue book does is state the FIA standard as being the one applicable to safety clothing. The implications are not good though as pretty much all my kit except helmet and HANS will in theory become bin fodder in a couple of years time. My suit is an off the shelf Alpinestars you could well get lucky with AWS as they are all effectively one off custom jobs from a set of base designs. 2017 is the first hit. If I buy another suit it will definitely be AWS or Stand21 as I found it a real PITA to get a good fitting suit.

My helmet is Snell2005 which I suspect will be withdrawn somewhere around 2020 or so I am not so worried about that assuming I make a comeback (really badly want to now).

Lesson here is only buy clothing, seat & belts etc. right before you start racing, all that time with it sat it home or in the garage is time off its life and buy stuff that is as new as possible to its date of manufacture.

944 man · Jul 5, 2015

Looking on a PC its easier to see: I understand that types can be resubmitted for approval (which I agree is unlikely); what Im hoping for is the option to inspect and approve for a further period, as you can with lifed seats.

I had missed this altogether, but had been thinking recently that we were due a new standard. This is all rather high handed though - we got a much better deal when the '86 suits were replaced with the 'new' 2000 standard, although this was by the MSA and I don't know what international rules were.

Hopefully the MSA will remember who feeds it.

Neil Haughey · Jul 5, 2015

I certainly hope so Simon and they tend to be fairly reasonable. A lot of people are having to fork out at the moment for FHRs like HANS, it would be a bit much to turn round and tell everyone after next year that most will need to buy a new race suit etc. as well. For the guys trying to get by on £5K or so each year these costs are a major impact, that includes me if I make a come back as I have a house to pay for now.

Seats are an oddity though as for many series a race seat is not actually required in the regs and the blue book doesn't dictate that a competition seat is required for circuit racing. I was surprised when I spotted this as it means its only really belts that are lifed.