roll bar settings
- Thread starter rs phil
- Start date
paul howells
New member
mich cups are the best track day tire out there,we tested new slicks and new mich cups on a 964rscs at oulton years ago,the slicks were only worth 1 second around oulton over the cups.
A good example was spa with my old 993 cup,1 set of cup tires i thought were ok,had done 1 qualy and 2 x1 hour races,and only 1 month old ,testing at spa was 3 seconds off with these tires,new tires ,2nd lap 3 secs gained! They do last a long time but also lose a fair amount of grip quickly,but if you are track daying , times are not important and you can wear them down to the canvas nearly.
Your tires may be fairly new but heat cycles kill the tires quicker than age.
Dunlops handle the heat better than toyos,but nearly as noisey, not as good in the wet as the toyo.
If you run the rear bar in the middle you will probably need the front on full soft.
Hope this helps
A good example was spa with my old 993 cup,1 set of cup tires i thought were ok,had done 1 qualy and 2 x1 hour races,and only 1 month old ,testing at spa was 3 seconds off with these tires,new tires ,2nd lap 3 secs gained! They do last a long time but also lose a fair amount of grip quickly,but if you are track daying , times are not important and you can wear them down to the canvas nearly.
Your tires may be fairly new but heat cycles kill the tires quicker than age.
Dunlops handle the heat better than toyos,but nearly as noisey, not as good in the wet as the toyo.
If you run the rear bar in the middle you will probably need the front on full soft.
Hope this helps
paul howells
New member
I would put rear on full stiff,leave front as you have at middle,see what it is like.
Looked at your post again,manthey ring set up,circuit or Northern loop.
The car has a lot of camber for the loop,more so for the track i would have thought.
Also with the amount of camber on the front,you need to push very hard to get the full tire working.If you dont, to much camber also does not help understeer on intial turn in,and mid corner with fresh diff plates will also help push the front of the car.
My 74rsr racer i now have ,i had new lsd plates,i put 2 plates together on each side of the diff to reduce understeer when on the gas out of the corner,as the diff was to much.
The other problem is that you can not set up or make accurate judgement on old or heat cycled rubber.
Looked at your post again,manthey ring set up,circuit or Northern loop.
The car has a lot of camber for the loop,more so for the track i would have thought.
Also with the amount of camber on the front,you need to push very hard to get the full tire working.If you dont, to much camber also does not help understeer on intial turn in,and mid corner with fresh diff plates will also help push the front of the car.
My 74rsr racer i now have ,i had new lsd plates,i put 2 plates together on each side of the diff to reduce understeer when on the gas out of the corner,as the diff was to much.
The other problem is that you can not set up or make accurate judgement on old or heat cycled rubber.
Interesting that you mention in your first post that the rake /height had been changed. Seeing the video reminded me of how my car handled at the first judgement day event. I had corner weighted the car and made an error in whatever it was i had worked out (long time ago now, so can't cant remember exactly what i did) and the car behaved very similarly to yours with bags too much understeer. needless to say I revisted my set up and rectified what ever it was.
Hacki
Active member
I think that´s the key.
Start setting the car up on a fresh set of tyres on a dry track with enough time to work on it.
No two cars are the same, but I´ll tell you my set up:
Rear full soft
Front second hardest
Toe in 0
Standard Cup springs and dampers
I don´t have the camber on hand, but it´s almost 0 rear, and about1,5 front
That is a compromise between road use, Nordschleife, track days and clubsport on road legal tyres (Slicks = different story)
One could guess it will understeer due to the roll bars, but it doesn´t. There´s very little understeer in slow corners, it´s absolutely neutral in fast ones, well balanced.
Ever since it´s set up like that it works everywhere and tyres last way longer than before. It´s a disadvantage on a GP track, where you need loads of camber and a low low car, but that´s no problem for me. It´s a compromise, so not the quickest set up on a very smooth surface.
A few of you know my car, it slides smoothly over all four wheels out of Pouhon, just great.And like all of our cars, when you really try too hard, your back will overtake you.
After having set the car up, I had the chance to have it tested on the Nürburgring GP track by a Porsche factory driver, who knows these cars very well. He really let it go and after a few corners he said: "The car is wonderful neutral, don´t change anything on the rollbars."
That was a nice confirmation.
Before I started working on it, I slided around as helpless as seen in the video. Tyre presssure way too high, not cornerweighted, wrong rollbar set up, toe in too much, etc. So we put fresh rubber on, had a full basic geo, cornerweighted it and within 2 days the job was done. But it takes time and real experts, the basic geo and cornerweighing took about a day, second day was driving and setting the rollbars up, until it worked. Last changes were done by adjusting the right height.
(It´s not low, as said, it´s a compromise set up)
In the cool dry weather of Spa this year I started with 1,9 bar front cold and 1,8 bar rear cold (road legal tyres), which was about 2,4 bar hot all round. In hot weather about two or three tenths less cold. The car won´t drive with more than 2,4 bar hot, not at all!
(On slicks or Cups it´s probably a little less from cold tyres and should be less when hot also)
Maybe that helps, good luck
Hacki
65 mat
New member
Isn't that how you are supposed to drive then?... looked like a typical trackday for me
] Actually it looked like fun to me Phil!Like the gloves by the way...I have a pair, the leather is softer than the skin on a woman's arse isn't it Phil! [
]i worry about you matt[]..yea they are nice and soft,arse gloves[]
was fun but i am getting a bit peeded of wrestling the car when i know it shoulnt be like that
got the setting from manthey, .+2mm complete front toe,2.55 camber
.+2,5mm each side rear toe,2.30 camber
they recomend full hard rear bar first and and then if still understeer 1 step softer on front bar,i can email setting anyone that wants them for future reference
]..yea they are nice and soft,arse gloves[]was fun but i am getting a bit peeded of wrestling the car when i know it shoulnt be like that
got the setting from manthey, .+2mm complete front toe,2.55 camber
.+2,5mm each side rear toe,2.30 camber
they recomend full hard rear bar first and and then if still understeer 1 step softer on front bar,i can email setting anyone that wants them for future reference
i was running 30psi hot on front and 38 psi hot on rear,
Way too high!! I run my slicks at 29/30 hot, 1-2psi over that on the rears and it starts to move around......my 'wets' Pirelli Corsas I run slightly hotter if I can get them upto temp in the rain, but ran them on a drying track at Spa last May -what a hoot, sliding (controllably!!) around strangely enough gave me more confidence to push my Dunlop slicks to get them to move around -fun!!
Ref ARB settings -I run full soft on the front and one stop off full hard at the rear (on Tony Dron's suggestion... []) but -3.5/-4.5 camber on the slicks so I don't wear the edges out! May not work for semi-road tyres.
Cup Cars on 17"'s apparently ran same set up as me so I must be doing something right!!
Thanx for the input guys!! Keep up the good work!
Way too high!! I run my slicks at 29/30 hot, 1-2psi over that on the rears and it starts to move around......my 'wets' Pirelli Corsas I run slightly hotter if I can get them upto temp in the rain, but ran them on a drying track at Spa last May -what a hoot, sliding (controllably!!) around strangely enough gave me more confidence to push my Dunlop slicks to get them to move around -fun!!
Ref ARB settings -I run full soft on the front and one stop off full hard at the rear (on Tony Dron's suggestion... [
]) but -3.5/-4.5 camber on the slicks so I don't wear the edges out! May not work for semi-road tyres.Cup Cars on 17"'s apparently ran same set up as me so I must be doing something right!!
Thanx for the input guys!! Keep up the good work!
so looking like soft front bar is the way to go...3.5and 4.5 camber must be mega with slicks...and the roll bars in the correct place[]
would love to do oulton,myself and a mate were talking about going over next month,any dates anyone doing next month preferably weekend?
is 2mm toe in on front total much?
]would love to do oulton,myself and a mate were talking about going over next month,any dates anyone doing next month preferably weekend?
is 2mm toe in on front total much?
PhilRS
New member
Melv are you using this set up at Spa?
We should compare notes next May and try different types of set ups.
I did this back then with the RSR, going from full hard everywhere--which was *very* lively but how it was delivered to me.
It felt as if the car was in a continuous gentle (and quite slow) drift everywhere (the slicks were well past their past prime). It was fine and great fun until I realised that I was turning in Blanchimont II and then taking the curve with almost no steering lock (very much like Des' Uberboy this year) and I started to fear for the bodywork []
I ended up with a set-up which was one off full hard at the front and mid-way again at the rear. This gave me more confidence for the left-right entry into Eau-Rouge and beginning of Raidillion (where big masses transfer quickly). Recommendation from the locals for a typical 964 RS is full hard front and mid-way at the rear, which is a hard set up (it is a smooth track), with a bias for understeer in the faster curves, not very different from mine. I still run the same one off full hard at the front and mid-way at the rear set-up on the 993 CUP.
We should compare notes next May and try different types of set ups.
I did this back then with the RSR, going from full hard everywhere--which was *very* lively but how it was delivered to me.
It felt as if the car was in a continuous gentle (and quite slow) drift everywhere (the slicks were well past their past prime). It was fine and great fun until I realised that I was turning in Blanchimont II and then taking the curve with almost no steering lock (very much like Des' Uberboy this year) and I started to fear for the bodywork [
]I ended up with a set-up which was one off full hard at the front and mid-way again at the rear. This gave me more confidence for the left-right entry into Eau-Rouge and beginning of Raidillion (where big masses transfer quickly). Recommendation from the locals for a typical 964 RS is full hard front and mid-way at the rear, which is a hard set up (it is a smooth track), with a bias for understeer in the faster curves, not very different from mine. I still run the same one off full hard at the front and mid-way at the rear set-up on the 993 CUP.
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