The answer for RMS problems?

NicD · Sep 11, 2004

OK Guys,

just back from the Club and a few mins before going to bed - have to get up at 2.45 am!

So I am pleased to say we will take this topic to the next stage. I will start to collate case examples, but the info you supply needs to be detailed and precise, rather than anecdotal - will need legal help here, to be sure that what we put together has value.

So, any lawyers want to help with advice on the format or process we should follow for collecting peoples experiences/case studies?

For all you who have suffered RMS, or other non-fair wear and tear failures, then please email me at system@porscheclubgb.com (don't just add to this thread please, its big enough already). I am particularly interested in multiple RMS replacements, and how Customer Service dealt with each case.

When I return in a week, I will start to collate the responses and look at the next steps - a meeting with those who will work me on this next stage.

The Club will be writing a letter to Porsche Cars letting them know we are disappointed with their lack of explanation and assistance on this important issue, and detailing the steps we are planning. We see no reason why Porsche owners in the US should be treated any better than us in the rest of the world (apart from the obvious) and will say this.

BUT no guarantees, we offer no miracle cures, just hard work and good intentions.

Please bear with us, and dont ask for much more detail on what we will be doing, as it isnt finalised yet and I want to spend my time working on the task, rather than debating the method. And yes, we are thinking of extending the survey, but I will let you know about this.

Guest · Sep 11, 2004

Nic

Good news indeed.

Enjoy your break - you will probably need another at the end of this exercise[

]

Helen Goff · Sep 11, 2004

I have sold my 4 year old Boxster because it has had two RMS replacements and i don't want to have the expense of replacing another.(yes, the new owner has all service/work receipts for my car so nothing was hidden from them)

i have also cancelled my order for a 987 at least untill i know if Porsche are going to do anything about this issue.

i know im not alone in this, just look at any of the cars for sale lists.

Guest · Sep 11, 2004

Well done Nic, a good result for all us owners, thanks for continuing the charge. Have a great break

Gary

Guest · Sep 11, 2004

Nic

As always thank you for your continuing support on this matter. HAve a geat break

Guest · Sep 12, 2004

Brilliant news!
Can't thank you enough Nic. I will put something together for you and email it to you privately.
Again, many many thanks for your continued and persistent support.
Cheers,

lazza · Sep 13, 2004

Nic,

As discussed at the Board, you have my complete support and I am sure that Helen and I will help in any way we can.

It's a big step for the Club, but the right thing to do by the Members.

See you soon

Lazza

tim court · Sep 13, 2004

Well done Nic,

Will email my experience when I have collated the details.

Just a thought but on the other RMS thread Andrew notes that we are all concentrating on the RMS being the issue and one of the standard cop outs is the lack of warranty to wear and tear items such as seals and gaskets.

This, as we are all now aware is not a seal that has worn out... it is the symptom of a faulty assembly of the crankcase halves. Would it not strengthen our case to concentrate more on this aspect???

regards, and have a good break,

Tim

Guest · Sep 13, 2004

Slightly OT but interesting & worrying none the less:

http://www.reliabilityindex.co.uk/top10_worst.html?apc=3128339010848601

daro911 · Sep 14, 2004

ORIGINAL: Scouser

Slightly OT but interesting & worrying none the less:

http://www.reliabilityindex.co.uk/top10_worst.html?apc=3128339010848601

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Along similar lines:-

Which? Car magazine has roundly criticised German marques as being no better than 'average' in its annual reliability survey, reports BBC.co.uk. The assessment of 138 different models was carried out by 80,000 Which? readers, who recorded breakdowns and other faults over a 12-month period for cars up to two years old. The biggest losers were Mercedes-Benz, which dropped from a Best rating to merely Average, and VW, which fell from Average to Poor. Two other VAG companies, Seat and Audi, slipped from Good to Average, while the Audi TT received one of the magazine's lowest scores for reliability for years. BMW, meanwhile, stayed put with its Average rating. Of the European car makers, only Smart managed to climb into the Best category. A spokesperson from Which? told the BBC: "It seems no major German marque has escaped the steady decline we have noticed in recent years

Guest · Sep 14, 2004

In regards to the 4 year warranty scheme enjoyed by Porsche NA owners, I aswked the following question on rennlist.com:

ORIGINAL: Scouser
Can anyone point me to any information or document that describes the
details of when and why Porsche NA were required by federal legislation
to up the manufacturers warranty on PNA sold cars from 2 to 4 years?

Here are the answers:

ORIGINAL: Holger B
The market forced them to do this. It's called supply and demand. Other manufactureres supplied it as the norm and buyers demanded it. Simple as that. Porsche did it to stay competitive. The only laws here on warranties that I'm aware of are for emission controls.

ORIGINAL: Tool Pants

I started Boxstering in 1999 when the 4 year warranty started. 1997 and 1998 Boxsters had a 2 year warranty. When I bought my 1997 Boxster in 1999 the 2 year factory warranty was over.

I do not remember any official reason. I also think the US market forced them to go with 4 years. Plus back then there were reported problems with the Boxster engines and tops.

When the 996 came to the US market as a model year 1999 it too had a 4 year warranty.

......<snip>......

..... I have a German Boxster friend and this is what he told me about Germany. By law a 6 month warranty has to be offered. Most companies made it a 1 year warranty and so did Porsche. When the Japanese cars came to Germany then Porsche made it 3 years. Once Germany joined the EU it went to 2 years.

This shows how the market can force a company to compete.

From this it can be learned that Porsche NA a wholly owned subsuduary of Porsche AG were not
enforced by any law to upgrade their warranty policy from 2 to 4 years. They did it purely to
be competitive in the market. Since Porsche GB are also a wholly owned subsiduary of PAG
and since we share a similar market as our bretheren in the US, it is only fair that Porsche GB
should offer the same and equal warranty system to us. However, there is no legal requirement
for them to do so. Only pressure from the market will get us there.

Guest · Sep 15, 2004

An interesting 996 thread in rennlist does a POLL for RMS problems with arguably interesting results.

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=122111

Guest · Sep 15, 2004

Berny

Thanks for that and on first read it looks well BUT - as I found on page 7 the old adage of lies, damn lies and statistics comes in to play. According to LVDell -

"As somebody who specializes in statistics and research methodology....this is a joke and an example I give my studetns at the University of how not to do research. HOWEVER, before I get slammed please read my entire post becasue I totally support this thread and everything that it represents. But, there is an extreme sampling bias present in this "survey". Not to mention the bias that exists in a self-report version of a survey."....

As I see it the only people who can provide the true figures are Porsche themselves or the supplier of the RMS seal to Porsche - I think the RMS sub committee has got a job on to get that information but.......

All Power to the RMS sub committee [

]

TopBear · Sep 15, 2004

Just to add a bit of more meat to the bones here.

Im collecting my car from the OPC shortly after getting the clutch adjusted due to it squeaking, and the whilst the car was at the dealer he observed that the RMS needed replacing. The car has <13K miles on the clock.

Not bad on its on you might think, as its covered by warrantly, but consider the fact that the same dealer has already replaced the RMS previously at ~10K miles in early August.

So, Im currently having the RMS replaced more often than im having holidays at present.

I have been told that the RMS being installed this time is 'the new seal' type......

Guest · Sep 15, 2004

Nigel, yes I agree with Del on his analysis of the Poll and its statistical value. But nevertheless is is still
representative of 150+ Porsche 996 owners, of which at least 60 of them have had an RMS leak. That's a fair chunk!
Also, it is interesting that the RMS issue is getting quite a lot of attention in the US Forums.

Another extremely interesting comment comes from Adrian Streather on www.porsche-1.net (AdrianS):

I happen to know that one reason Mr Schwab took early retirement from PCNA was his decision to up the warranty from 2 to 4 years without permission from PAG. One reason for the decision was to match or better other auto companies offering similar warranties for competiting cars. The other reason was to protect US owners with RMS problems which is not actually regarded as a "Problem" by PAG. However that is another story.

Adrian Streather is a well known author of a number of Porsche books. E.g., The Porsche 911 Enthusiasts Companion.
So his comments should not be taken as hearsay.

daro911 · Sep 15, 2004

ORIGINAL: TopBear

I have been told that the RMS being installed this time is 'the new seal' type......

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Do they mean seal as in "seal grey" or the "new seal type" guaranteed to last twice as long as your August version [&o]
Good luck either way [

]

bones · Sep 15, 2004

Ask then then for the part no of the 'new' and old seal I smell a rat.

Guest · Sep 15, 2004

ORIGINAL: TopBear

I have been told that the RMS being installed this time is 'the new seal' type......

Oh! would that be another new seal then? There have been 4 that I know about!
I hope they changed the crankcase bolts too and the intermediate shaft (IMS) flange bolts.

Note that this applies to the 996 but I am sure it would also apply to the 986.

Guest · Sep 15, 2004

TopBear

I like the point of adding meat to the bones - all good stuff that might at some stage be useful / needed by the RMS sub committee.

You might already know - but worth asking, whilst they are carrying out the exercise have they taken any measurements or made use of any equipment to test alignment of the crank? Any photos obtained for future use?

Fingers crossed for this RMS - may it do the job for without suffering early retirement!