The answer for RMS problems?

[hawkhead]

"I appreciate what Nic has done and as an ex-Director I am fully aware of why the club will not go the extra mile that you (we) want them to. That is not to say I agree with the stance either. "

Well said

I would like to know why the club will NOT help it's members

Maybe the directors who will not help would like to say so in this thread

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: Adrian Fuller

By the way did you know that in the US the standard factory warranty is four years, as opposed to our two. - This also seems completely unfair.

Adrian

Adrian,

I think that Bernie pointed this out earlier in the thread. Also out of warranty cars, in the states, are covered for both the RMS and catatrophic engine failures as a good will measure. The interesting thing here is that all Porsches are made in one place. There are no rea changes made to the engines destined for the states, so the question is why are we in the uk not treated the same???

 

[GreigM]

Very interesting - Nic, Mark, JCB and others - I appreciate the time and effort spent, and the fact that you have published the results (probably) against the wishes of some club members and PGB.

I have 2 brief(ish) points to make:

1. I agree with the idea of taking this public - I too have much too lose in the devaluation of my car, but feel this is already creeping through - prices of 911/Boxsters have crashed recently and I believe this is a contributing factor, as many people will (should!) research the car before purchase and due to the abundance of websites with this information - it's not hard to find. At this point, a VERY public "outing" of Porsche and it's attitude to UK customers is the only thing I believe can bring what we all want - a promise to fix the RMS if it fails - NOT a general recall, just the acceptance that there is a problem and not to worry as it will be fixed for you.

2. A general philosophical point for the club - what REAL benefit do the MEMBERS get from the "official" status with porsche? I can't really see it and this may be down to my naivety, but if the club disassociated itself with PGB tomorrow then I fail to see how my activities and membership of the club would be affected. We might lose the right to the word Porsche and also the use of the logo on letterheads - but what else? I appreciate this issue only affects boxster and 996 owners, but its not the first and I'm sure not the last - so if Porsche ignores each issue in turn then what do we benefit from the arrangement? This isn't a criticism of anyone, I just feel at the moment that PGB is getting more out of the arrangement than we are?

 

[bones]

I don't know enough about the internal politics of the club to describe to you what benefits club members get from an 'official' tie up with Porsche A.G. However I think it's something we should maintain it must make it easier for people like Eion Sloan to arrange the fabulous display of historic Porsches at Brands and that's just one obvious example. However that said it is bizarre that American customers seem to be treated far better than their UK counterparts but the club shouldn't be 'piggy in the middle' and it can't afford to get embroiled in a legal fight even if it had been decided it was right to do so. Perhaps all concerned could call for an EGM?

 

[JCB..]

2. A general philosophical point for the club - what REAL benefit do the MEMBERS get from the "official" status with porsche? I can't really see it and this may be down to my naivety, but if the club disassociated itself with PGB tomorrow then I fail to see how my activities and membership of the club would be affected. We might lose the right to the word Porsche and also the use of the logo on letterheads - but what else? I appreciate this issue only affects boxster and 996 owners, but its not the first and I'm sure not the last - so if Porsche ignores each issue in turn then what do we benefit from the arrangement? This isn't a criticism of anyone, I just feel at the moment that PGB is getting more out of the arrangement than we are?

Grieg

I couldn't agree more!

JCB..

 

[NicD]

I would like to know why the club will NOT help it's members

Can you give me a short (but practical) summary of what more you want the Club to do?

Just so you know, on average Jeff, myself and another Director read most posts, and if I can gather a reasonable summary, I will email to the whole Board.

btw, any significant change of the Club's relationship with Porsche Cars should be sanctioned by the membership, either at the AGM or an EGM (I mentioned this earlier). The Board would not feel comfortable making this sort of decision on their own.

 

[GreigM]

ORIGINAL: NicD

I would like to know why the club will NOT help it's members

Can you give me a short (but practical) summary of what more you want the Club to do?

I agree with Nic here - he has tried, stuck his own neck out, and I now fully understand and appreciate (very much). It's not that the club necessarily don't want to help the members, it's just that there's nothing realistically that the club can do - they have tried what they can do within the current bounds of their relationship with Porsche, and nothing has come of it.

Hence why I asked the question about the real life benefits of the relationship. I think we (the club) can ask no-more of the individuals (Nic etc) unless we (the members) are as a whole ready to fundamentally change the relationship with PGB - as someone else pointed out, an EGM would be necessary as well as support from the rest of the (non-boxster/996) membership...which realistically isn't going to happen. It's maybe time for the club to move on, but always remember the reaction of Porsche to this issue and bear that in mind in further dealings. Maybe some of the people allowing OPCs to borrow their cars for the 997 launch should consider what they get in return for favours like this?

 

[Guest]

[/quote]

Can you give me a short (but practical) summary of what more you want the Club to do?

[/quote]

Nic

Thanks for asking - what about the 2 points as contained within my letter to the Board of July -

At some stage and subject to how far we get with Porsche, I would wish the club to examine the possibility of independent research in to the issue of failing RMS "" so that we can argue the point from a position of strength.

Finally present and future owners will (subject to Porsche) face this problem for many years to come. I consider that the Club could best serve members affected by RMS by creating a "˜user friendly guide' as to all steps open for resolution ranging from negotiation with relevant parties through to the final arbiter of a Court appearance under existing Consumer Protection Legislation.

Also, and to help readers understand the difference in the situation of PCA and PCGB I reprint the following from an email received earlier -

"Porsche Cars North America is, on it's own, taking the initiative to "do the right thing" and replace engines under warranty. Some even after warranty. It is not something others outside PCNA have caused through influence, suggestion or legislation. While it is a shame to see such otherwise brilliant cars have such mighty defects, it is nonetheless an outstanding example of a company seeking to make things right. Quite refreshing in this day & age. They are not communists, of course, and happily so, their goal is to continue to build and expand the brand and therefore their sales. But they value the customer and customer satisfaction in the equation. It is ultimately a simple example of free markets at work. I know nothing about the market in Great Britain, so I cannot begin to speculate what might be needed over there, except perhaps to see if PCNA's example can simply be followed by Porsche in GB. If they are not, I think we can conclude they are lacking sufficient competition for market share, or are being run by people whose business model remains a mystery."

I have a lot of time for the sentiment expressed[]

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: NicD


Can you give me a short (but practical) summary of what more you want the Club to do?

As I mentiones in a previous post
"I fully accept that the club cannot get involved in a class action, however would it be possible for the club to get some proper legal advice on who if anybody is legally responsible so that any individual has a good legal starting point.
I realise that it is complicated with Imports , 2nd hand cars bought outside the dealer network and independent servicing but I am sur that there is Europen legislation regarding manufacturer, importer and dealer responsibilities. "
Would it not be possible for the club to do this?

 

[JCB..]

I think that all thoose who think that the likes of top gear dont already know about the problem with porsches should look at these links. Note that the first link in in the "Duffers" section

http://www.topgear.com/content/my_topgear/duffers/D3/A3/02/
http://www.topgear.com/content/carknowledge.jsp

Just because a few emails appear on a web site doesn't mean a great deal!

It's all very well saying Top Gear know about it but aren't they more concerned about coming up with new gimics to boost ratings rather than being champions of the motorist?

JCB..

 

[Mark_Bennett]

One Director of Top Gear, and the lead cameraman, both own Boxsters.

But does it make a newsworthy (i.e. Jeremy can take the **** out of Boxsters again[&:]) that's the thing...

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the support guys, as yet I have not had any response from the BBC except an automated reply. But I
will keep you all posted if anything comes in. But please consider going to the watchdog site and lodging your own
complaint. The more we get the better chance we have of being heard.

The unfairness of the way we in the UK are treated by Porsche UK vs the same by Porsche owners in the US by Porsche US is exacerbated by the fact that they also get 4 years warranty. An awful lot can happen in two years. For example, in my case, if I had bought my car in the US it would almost definitely have had a new engine and gearbox on four counts:

1) they treat Porsche customers better in the US.
2) they have a policy to replace faulty engines with no questions asked in regards to repeat RMS problems or engines grenading.
3) they have a good-will scheme in the US too despite Porsche Reading telling me they dont!
4) it would have been done under warranty anyway.

According to the guy that I spoke to at Reading, the US may benefit from 4 years warranty but they don't have
the same 5 year good-will scheme that they offer for customers here in the UK. I know for a fact that that is a heap of crud!
I also think that if you get your car serviced by the dealership then it is their responsibility to ensure that it remains
in a good road worthy condition. I mean that's what you are paying them for when you take it in for its service. So, in
my case, the 1st RMS failed and the gearbox was noted as faulty at less than 4k miles after its 24k service. But they
refused to fix the gearbox and still demanded £237 off me towards the RMS repair....which is still not right even now.

As for the club and this RMS fiasco, I am not blaming Nic or any of the others that have pursued this with PGB personally.
I can see that they have put a lot of their free-time effort into this already. I am extremely greatful for their effort.
My issue is with the club itself and its policies and not any particular person or Director. Given how it stands right
now I just don't see what PCGB has to offer me. Sure there's the great events and the member benefits such as reduced price paraphenalia but the club is more than a supporters club it's a club of Porsch car owners and there's a bunch of us crying out for help here and there will be more to come. These cars are going to give
us trouble in the future or the new owners if we sell them on. The problem will not mysically disssapear if we sell our
cars. The issue as I see it is that PCGB should use its "might" and its "weight" as an important partner to Porsche AG to
ensure that its members are happy with their Porsche cars. I can't think of a better organisation to battle it out with
Porsche than PCGB. I am fairly certain that if this issue had been in the US then PNA would be coming down exteremly
heavy on Porsche US to the extent of threatening litigation. They certrainly would have gone to the Media with it IMHO.
I am not saying that litigation should be the way to go for PUK although it would be more than welcome, I am saying that "the club" should now take it to the Media such as Watchdog, Top Gear, the mags and so on. If the letter I had written (in previous posting) had come from PCGB instead of just a disgruntled customer like me, I feel certain
it would belooked at with much greater interest. I mean, imagine if I worked for the Watchdog team and I received a letter
of complaint from PCBG in regards to faulty manufacture in their late model 911! This would be a huge story for them. If the club sits back and takes this so easily now then in the future Porsche AG will just laugh off even more any more problems that might crop up in these cars or future cars for that matter. The club MUST make a strong and vocal stand on behalf of its members and DEMAND that a resonable and acceptable solution be
provided by Porscge UK or for that matter Porsche AG (why deal with the middleman) . As it stands, Porsche UK
have easily won this battel right now. They blew off PCGB and I think they will be congratulating each other on this fact. Let's stand up and be counted. At least two members have offered £1000 towards legal fees, well count
me in as the 3rd.

While I am on my soap box, I wonder how many of you are willing to boycot the 997 launch. I would like to suggest we get as many members as possible and go camp outside the launch under protest with RMS Club banners and handing flyers out at the same time. I would take time off work to fight this battle if needed. Anyone up for this?

 

[NicD]

OK, I have requested a slot at the Club's Board Meeting this Saturday.

I will present a summary of the points stated on this thread over last days.

First point for the Board to decide, whether they want the Club to publicly go head to head with Porsche Cars on this or similar customer advocacy issues. This has huge implications for the Club either way.

If the answer is yes, then I will offer myself to continue to be the Club contact point/driving force.

BUT, and here is a big one, the Club's (and mine) resources are rather finite. I will go forward only with the practical help from one or two of you members who are directly affected and feel strongly. I propose a small sub-committee to take this right through to the end, so could be six months or more. I have already good contact with a couple of the posters on this topic, and hope these can be developed. Please feel free to email or phone me directly re this

If I get no offers to assist, this will show the lack of follow through and I will drop the whole idea.

Please note that I am on vacation (belated big birthday) from first thing Sunday morning, so may not be able to come back straight away.

 

[JCB..]

BUT, and here is a big one, the Club's (and mine) resources are rather finite. I will go forward only with the practical help from one or two of you members who are directly affected and feel strongly. I propose a small sub-committee to take this right through to the end, so could be six months or more. I have already good contact with a couple of the posters on this topic, and hope these can be developed. Please feel free to email or phone me directly re this

You know that you don't have to ask for my full support.

JCB..

 

[NicD]

Thank you John, I know I will need it!

 

[Mark_Bennett]

Mine too.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The problem is going to be 10 times worse for the owner in 10 years, where the proportion of cost-to-fix to value-of-car is going to mean some will not bother.
That is where the residuals problem kicks in!

 

[Peter_Bull]

btw, any significant change of the Club's relationship with Porsche Cars should be sanctioned by the membership, either at the AGM or an EGM (I mentioned this earlier). The Board would not feel comfortable making this sort of decision on their own.

Nic
You and I both know that there are many decisions made at board level that significantly effect the relationship that we have with Porsche Cars GB, much more than what we are asking the 'Club' to do here. Whilst you and the rest of the board may not 'feel comfortable' making the decision to act on our behalf in a strong and decisive manner, I am afraid that is what you were elected for. To represent the members interests - and that means with agencies that may provide poor service to its members. In this case Porsche Cars GB. As a club we have done it on many occasions with other suppliers of goods and services, so we should not shy away from this purely because we have a great relationship with them?

What Berny, others and I are simply asking here is to add weight to the argument that what is sold to us, the members, is not of the quality that we can reasonably expect from any manufacture, let alone Porsche.

It's a very serious issue, and I can see that this will get very heated soon as more and more members become aware of the problems that may be associated with their Porsche's. Once that ball starts rolling there will definately be trouble ahead.

As I see it, and by all accounts many others on this forum, is that the 'Club' (i.e. Directors) should be acting on behalf of Porsche owners to represent their case as strongly as possible. A fair and equitable solution on a par with PCA would be all that we ask.

 

[Guest]

Nic,
I am overwhelmed at your continued dedication to help the group given the current restrictions imposed on you and the
undeserved personal flak that you seem to have sustained from us (incuding from me, and I am truly sorry). I am more than willing to support you. If you need me just ask. The only issue is that I may not be able to get down there so easily to attend meetings. But I will do my very best.

Cheers,

 

[NicD]

Berny,

thank you!
You are one of those I have in mind to help. The quality of your investigations has been very high.

 

[NicD]

Peter,

it would definitely help, for you to have a quiet word with the other Directors that may not be reading this Forum, before the Board meeting on Saturday