The suspension saga continues - Bilstein Escort Cup ?

mike220 · Aug 1, 2008

I swear I'll stop all this suspension talk soon - promise . . . . . . . [&:] haha

OK, so after much messing, I found that the Koni sports were the ONLY budget option. I'd pretty much resigned myself to the fact that was gonna be my chosen route, but a few weeks have passed now as I've been manic with the business. Therefore the funds have grown a little, and I'm now wondering if I shouldn't spend a touch more . . . . . . . .Oh dear, I can see that slope in front of me now . . . . . . . [

]

So, who's had experience of Bilstein Escort Cup setup (ala ones Lindsey Racing supply etc.) ?

Shout out your knowledge guys, before I think I have to save even more for KW's (which I really don't wanna do if I can get away with it). I know a lot of the guys on Rennlist quite rate the Billies, but they 'don't do corners' out there so I wanted some real opinion haha (runs and hides in case any Shermans are listening [8|])

Resigned myself to the fact that if I go with a nicer setup with coil rears, I'm gonna be getting into major suspension surgery. I'm mentally preparing myself for the extra work, and will be re-indexing the rear torsions myself. Alternatively, does anyone over here run rear torsion bar delete setup ? Again, there seems to be a lot on Rennlist that do, and swear by it ?

Blow my mind even further with info boys . . . . . . . . . . it's wrecked already [8D]

Mike

Big Dave · Aug 1, 2008

The Bilstein "escort cup" stuff IS good kit. BUT its non adjustable.
Now that might be a good thing or bad...
Personally i like doing the adjusting .

Ide be greatly suprised if the Bilstein was any cheaper than the KW .
They are both about as good as each other....

Peter Empson · Aug 1, 2008

I agree the adjustability is a massive bonus especially if you're doing track work but also if you just want to be able to fine tune it on the road. I love being able to drive to a circuit in relative comfort and within 2 minutes adjust the Leda's to my preference (to suit a wet or a dry track even).

appletonn · Aug 1, 2008

I've got the Bilsteins on my car and I love the set up![

]

Admittedly, you do not have the adjustability (stiff, stiff, or stiff?) but it is quality kit and the damping is amazing.

That said, for primarily a road car, the KW route would seem to make more sense.

I am running 18" rims with mine, but I drove to Le Mans and back and the ride isn't that much worse than my work Beemer on sports suspension and confounded run-flat tyres.

Having the geometry done to a 'fast-road/track' spec has made a world of difference to the whole feel of the car on this suspension.

mike220 · Aug 1, 2008

From what prices I can glean at the moment - KW = £1300 whereas Bilstein Escort Cup seems to be about £900. Is it really worth the extra £400 ? As that's a few mods or some money towards geo setup etc.

Anyone shed any light on torsion bar delete option ?

Nick, are you going to the thing in Wallasey a week on Wed ? If so can I be hardfaced and ask you to take me out in your car ? haha. In fact while I'm at it, is anyone going in a KW V3 equipped car ? Lets ride in both back to back and call it decision time eh ?

Mike

Diver944 · Aug 1, 2008

ORIGINAL: Big Dave UK

Ide be greatly suprised if the Bilstein was any cheaper than the KW .

Having a quick look at the Lindsey site and when you add on shipping to the basic order with standard top mount fittings you'll be talking about $2000 dollars or roughly £1000 GBP. Then add on 17.5% vat and 7% import duty plus whatever handling charge the courier adds on and you'll be looking at £1300 altogether.

Which is near as damnit the same as KW from Promax at £1350

mike220 · Aug 1, 2008

I made it $1650 so even if you got stung for VAT and Import Duty it comes to $2000 ish. I wouldn't be getting them sent straight to me from Lindsey, so I MAY slip through customs etc. and not have to pay ? Just hoping really [

] haha

Mike

stevespic · Aug 1, 2008

ORIGINAL: mike220

I swear I'll stop all this suspension talk soon - promise . . . . . . . [&:] haha

OK, so after much messing, I found that the Koni sports were the ONLY budget option. I'd pretty much resigned myself to the fact that was gonna be my chosen route, but a few weeks have passed now as I've been manic with the business. Therefore the funds have grown a little, and I'm now wondering if I shouldn't spend a touch more . . . . . . . .Oh dear, I can see that slope in front of me now . . . . . . . []

So, who's had experience of Bilstein Escort Cup setup (ala ones Lindsey Racing supply etc.) ?

Shout out your knowledge guys, before I think I have to save even more for KW's (which I really don't wanna do if I can get away with it). I know a lot of the guys on Rennlist quite rate the Billies, but they 'don't do corners' out there so I wanted some real opinion haha (runs and hides in case any Shermans are listening [8|])

Resigned myself to the fact that if I go with a nicer setup with coil rears, I'm gonna be getting into major suspension surgery. I'm mentally preparing myself for the extra work, and will be re-indexing the rear torsions myself. Alternatively, does anyone over here run rear torsion bar delete setup ? Again, there seems to be a lot on Rennlist that do, and swear by it ?

Blow my mind even further with info boys . . . . . . . . . . it's wrecked already [8D]

Mike

Mike, I have to say im glad you took the time to post this as i think were in the same boat...i have ordered all the parts i need from porsche but just cant bring my self to order the Konis in case im doing the wrong thing.... Do i spend 1300 notes job done with the konis or do i spend 2500 notes and have the job done with the KW V3 ? I know what all the KW boys are shouting but i hate seeing my hard earned cash going into other peoples pockets... If i knew i could do the torsion bar work my self then for sure i would have the KW....[

]

Hilux · Aug 1, 2008

Seriously now.................

If you are going to keep the car and use it enthusiastically then the KW is a no brainer. They are stainless steel so dont rust, fully adjustable and you can take them with you if you change the car. Factor also into the cost of ANY suspension upgrade some of the items mentioned below.

Note that no-one will see huge benefits in new suspension if the castor mounts are knackered and arent replaced with the 968 version, the ARB`s arent beefed up and the relevant bushes renewed as required. Anything else is a compromise IMHO

A good starting point is to get the suspension taught and under control and then splash out on KW`s.

mike220 · Aug 1, 2008

I know what you mean Paul, and yes castor mounts and full poly re-bush of the ARB's was always on the cards. As to keeping the car - unsure really, I've never had a car more than 2 years or so, but I do quite like it. I just can't really drive it how I want and fall in love with it - as the bloomin suspension is that goosed it get's pretty wild when you push on haha. I do have some secretive plans for where I wanna take it though in an ideal world, so I guess time will tell if I get there.

Steve, what have you bought so far, with prices ? Seems distinctly like we're following the same road, and approaching the same fork in it lol. Are you doing any work yourself or are you gonna have to stump up the queens to get it done ?

Mike

MarkK · Aug 1, 2008

After all the hoo-ha on here about how good the KW v3 was, i decided to give it a try on my red tuned turbo,it was then running 968 M030 springs and dampers on fullish stiff and lowered on the torsion bars quite a bit,its handling was always pretty good but i found the ride a bit harsh(hoppy) especially at the back, decided to bite the bullet and ditched the konis -picked up the car with the KWs fitted and without being dramatic i was blown away,it is really firm and the car turns in really level but it feels really sophisticated over little bumps and undulations amazingly it feels pretty comfortable, even at a good rate of knots over a country lane and i find it much easier to maintain "good progress"( keep it nailed )and the car stays composed,so far its probably one of the best things i have done to the car,i would reccomend you try and get a go in a KW equiped motor before you decide so you can make an imformed choice back to back.All the KW noise that was being made prompted me to go for it and even though its not cheap,its a great value change made to the car that brings it up to date.Can anyone explain why its technically different from the older stuff??ie how it is stiff but still comfortable???Never quite understood that bit...[8|]

mike220 · Aug 1, 2008

Something to do with damping bypass valves so it handles high speed and low speed damping at different rates.

I'll try my best to get a ride in both at the Wallasey meet in just less than two weeks if it's possible - if it's night and day like you say, I may just go for it (oh no I hear my bank a/c cry . . . . . )

Mike

Neil Haughey · Aug 1, 2008

Not wanting to throw a spanner in the works but apparently the GAZ shocks used by several racers in the PCGB championship is no more then several hundred quid for the complete set. I haven't looked into it yet but IMHO this would seem to knock out Bilstein cup since they are both track / racing focused kits.

I had a good look at an S2 at Silverstone that had the GAZ shocks which surprised me since I didn't see it listed in the GAZ catalogue. Got chatting to the cars owner and like he said just give em a call for details. I would probably look into this route first and then decide if the KW gives more for a car used on the road.

mike220 · Aug 1, 2008

Hmm, very interesting . . . . . . lol

All spanners welcome here Neil. This is exactly what I wanted - all the info and options so I can make an informed decision.

Glutton for punishment that I am, I think I've just decided to extend my garage so I can do more work myself in a more comfortable environment. Small building project will be starting very shortly [

] haha. I must be nuts - I've only just finished a 4 month renovation of a house - tenants moved in yesterday lol.

Does anyone know a good psychiatrist ? [&:]

Mike

Big Dave · Aug 2, 2008

Neil .
The GAZ stuff is as far as i know FULL race kit.
And rides accordingly. "[ several hundred quid for the full set ]" .???? More like £1300 ish...
A VERY good m8 of mine is running a 968 in a selection of the races this year. It has GAZ stuff fitted + he seems to be having some set up challenges....

If you are after road / track use youd do a LOT worse than fitting the KW,,, .. I know "we" harp on about how good it is.. BUT it REALY is that good....
It seems that MarkK has found out himself...Good on ya m8....
The KW V3 kit is made for road / track use but NOT full race. And is GOOD at what it does...Soft + compliant over the harsh bumps etc, but also composed + stiff when needed...
I think "we" need to get in touch with KW + see if "we" can get some kind of comission on the kit, as "we" seem to be reccomending it a lot....[

][

]

appletonn · Aug 2, 2008

ORIGINAL: mike220

From what prices I can glean at the moment - KW = £1300 whereas Bilstein Escort Cup seems to be about £900. Is it really worth the extra £400 ? As that's a few mods or some money towards geo setup etc.

Anyone shed any light on torsion bar delete option ?

Nick, are you going to the thing in Wallasey a week on Wed ? If so can I be hardfaced and ask you to take me out in your car ? haha. In fact while I'm at it, is anyone going in a KW V3 equipped car ? Lets ride in both back to back and call it decision time eh ?

Mike

Mike, yes I'll be there and no probs with taking you for a ride[

]

sawood12 · Aug 2, 2008

ORIGINAL: MarkK

Can anyone explain why its technically different from the older stuff??ie how it is stiff but still comfortable???Never quite understood that bit...[8|]

Yes, as mentioned earlier it is the dampter bypass valve. If you look at an illustration of how PASM works then it is similar to that, just not actively controlled - so it is sort of a 'passive' PASM or a KWPSM if you will. This allows stiffer springs to be used whilst still retaining good performance over bumps. So when the car is going round corners and the damper needs to resist body roll, accellaration and braking squat the dampers are stiff, but as soon as you hit a bump, pothole or something like that the bypass valve opens and softens the damper to give you a more compliant ride and ensure the wheel doesn't bounce over the bump as it would with stiff suspension.

Hilux · Aug 2, 2008

To summarise once and for all.

The KW is not to be directly compared to other dampers for one particular reason..............it is so successful at what it does because it allows firm settings for road that dont knacker the dampers because of the built in bypass valve.

Other makes of damper if set to KW firm road/soft track settings are a compromise and can make a car undriveable and bl**dy dangerous as they tend to either launch the car into orbit, try and punch the uprights through the turrets or bust the damper or damper seals when a pothole or speed bump is hit at higher than desireable speeds. All of the above unsettle the car and remove tyre contact. The KW absorbs these large bumps and depressions due to the bypass valve so allowing firm suspension on road yet allowing easy adjustment for firming up even more for track.

Other systems if set as hard are not suitable for poor road surfaces hence the KW`s effectiveness, composure and genuine sense of security when cornering which is why you really need to try it out first. You wont buy anything else once experienced. Dont forget Mo30 is simply and only an adjustable front spring on what is still soft road suspension, it has to be. The KW is a million miles away in terms of technology.

stevespic · Aug 2, 2008

ORIGINAL: mike220

Steve, what have you bought so far, with prices ? Seems distinctly like we're following the same road, and approaching the same fork in it lol. Are you doing any work yourself or are you gonna have to stump up the queens to get it done ?

Mike

Hi Mike, So far i have ordered the same list that Herbie had on the other post at the same prices, MO30 roll bars, cs front springs,castor mounts,new drop links, bushes for everything...my next order was going to be for the KLA top mounts,and uprated front and rear drop links from ES....Im lucky to have access to a full on garage with all i need and was intending to do everything my self ....but i have never reindexed a torsion bar before and niether has my mate who owns the garage....and for that job to be done with parts is going to cost around 700 notes [

]...

mike220 · Aug 3, 2008

ORIGINAL: appletonn

ORIGINAL: mike220

From what prices I can glean at the moment - KW = £1300 whereas Bilstein Escort Cup seems to be about £900. Is it really worth the extra £400 ? As that's a few mods or some money towards geo setup etc.

Anyone shed any light on torsion bar delete option ?

Nick, are you going to the thing in Wallasey a week on Wed ? If so can I be hardfaced and ask you to take me out in your car ? haha. In fact while I'm at it, is anyone going in a KW V3 equipped car ? Lets ride in both back to back and call it decision time eh ?

Mike

Click to expand...

Mike, yes I'll be there and no probs with taking you for a ride[]