The suspension saga continues - Bilstein Escort Cup ?

[944Turbo]

I recently heard that Koni supply the damper units to KW and a quick web search would seem to suggest this is a widely spread rumour. Did Gaz rise from the ashes of Leda?
Tony

 

[sawood12]

Sounds like a rumour to me. It is the damper unit that seperates the KW from the other manufacturers. Seems silly for Koni to supply the trick bit of the system to KW for them to market without having the same technology in their own product line-up.

 

[frogisland]

I run Bilstein suspension with pretty stiff springs - they have been on the car for a few years. They are a stiff damper and can take some pretty hefty spring rates. I like the fact that i don't have to mess around with damper settings (one of the settings of the rears on the KW are a bugger to set [] ), and am generally on the track a little quicker (dig at bigDave). Generally speaking, there does not appear to be much in it on track between a car with the Bilstein and KW - i think other factors also come into play (notwithstanding the driver).

The Billies are stiff on the road, this is where the KW comes into its own with the adjustability. Even as a Bilstein owner, i would suggesst you go down the KW route, especially if your car is used on the road. My suspension setup is extreme (no rubber, additional stiffening etc) and you need to concentrate when driving on A roads. My point is, you simply cannot have a car that is great on the road and on the track, be honest with yourself and count the miles/time your car will spend on the road/track, if it is orientated towards the road go for the KW's, orientated towards the track (i.e. trailered) and you want cheap, simply and very robust suspension go for the Bilstein. Take some advice from someone whom has spent a simply insane amount of money on a road car making it handle/brake superbly on track only for it not (now) being used much on track! We kid ourselves trying to recreate 'pseudo' 'race cars', take heed the advice of others (hint), enjoy your car, and have fun in it. If it is 'race car' suspension that you are trying to achieve - buy a race car!

JP

 

[Hilux]

Take some advice from someone whom has spent a simply insane amount of money on a road car making it handle/brake superbly on track only for it not (now) being used much on track! We kid ourselves trying to recreate 'pseudo' 'race cars', take heed the advice of others (hint), enjoy your car, and have fun in it. If it is 'race car' suspension that you are trying to achieve - buy a race car!

Top advice that man []

For me to spend 000`s on bushes and piggy backs and loads of dials and gauges (that only give me more to worry about- whats wrong with a big yellow light []) and adjustable top mounts and expensive shiney bits, ditching this and that to save weight is relatively pointless as I only do a few track days a year so cannot possibly do back to back comparisons.

I would be interested in whether switching from 1.5 degrees camber to 2.5 degrees made massive differences but cant be *rsed until it is caged and on slicks when tyre temps, wear and v high corner speeds mean you need to be serious about injury. You only have to see a bog standard Clio cup car ragging most others on twisty tracks to see my point. I only went the KW route as I knew the car needed its suspension refurbished and had driven Fen`s car to see what it was like. Once driven it was no brainer.

We should all look at what our cars are used for, primarily on the road and parked in a field on sunny days with fellow enthusiasts but very capable on track (hence the KW) However get the stock suspension rebushed and taught with new springs and dampers and it will also make a huge difference. Better brakes and sticky track biased tyres will see your lap times tumbling.

The best investment in quicker track times is not insanely expensive `A` arms and mahoosive turbos but driving tuition! Watch Andrew S, simply copy his 270bhp?? car. Bog standard (now with KW I believe) and on sticky slicks thrashes the pants of most cars out there. Anything else is simply road biased and to prove a point against 911`s and Fezza`s on dual carriageways.

Anyone with balls can take on a GT2/3 or Lambo/Fezza etc BUT you`ll try harder as the other owner will not want to stuff £110,000 worth into the kitty litter or tyre wall.................so did you really beat them fair and square??? Great pub talk though []

Horses for courses. I know I`m not a Lewis Hamilton I`m just enjoying cars.

Discuss..........................[8D]

 

[appletonn]

Paul, couldn't agree more[]

As stuff wears out, it is good fun (and often cheaper) to fit upgraded bits rather than OE whilst still remembering the main use the car gets.

At the end of the day the cars are now old, but it is great fun showing supposedly newer and vastly more expensive cars what that old Porsche is capable of....[]

I've just ordered some of those KLA brace brackets for the front arb - just can't help myself.

"Hi, my names Nick and I'm a compulsive 944 upgrader..."[]

 

[stevespic]

What sort of prices are we looking at for the Bilsteins ? do they come as inserts or are the everything, would fitting these be the same as fitting the KW, would the torsion bar need re-indexing for a correct set up ?

Cheers Steve.

 

[mike220]

ORIGINAL: spic01

What sort of prices are we looking at for the Bilsteins ? do they come as inserts or are the everything, would fitting these be the same as fitting the KW, would the torsion bar need re-indexing for a correct set up ?

Cheers Steve.

From what I can find - about £850 Steve. They're the same style setup as the KW's (albeit with no damping though) so yes the torsions really need re-indexing to get the setup to work at it's best. I'm still trying to find out about removing them altogether though, like a fair few of our US friends are doing. Seems no one over here runs like this though for some reason ? So I can't find out too much about it up to now . . . . . . . .

Mike

 

[frogisland]

It is a few years since fiting my Bilsteins, costs will be around the same maybe a small amount less than KW - but don't forget to factor in the alignment that you will need afterwards. New top mounts will make quite a difference (even standard), don't forget nice fresh caster mounts. I assume the bushes in your wishbones are good too....and we havn't even started on the rear bushes yet....a couple of hundred £ becomes academic after a while. Buy a kit that you are comfortable with (within a price range), you will need to reindex with Billies, they are complete struts/coilovers as the KW. Don't forget that the KW comes as a tuned kit - springs/dampers. The Bilstein don't - the kits you see are put together by the seller, perhaps with some good experience, but may not suit all applications/driver. I changed springs several times to get a setup that i was happy with. Good quality springs are not cheap, as are constant realignments (i was changing length and poundage)

JP

 

[frogisland]

A great deal of the racers over here have to have the torsions in for their race series (i think i am correct in saying for the PC Championship), not a great deal of these cars racing in other series also (where you could perhaps remove them). Also the additional weight is useful at the rear to balance the car. Have driven a car with a rear torsion delete - the back end is quite a handful. I am told that some racers machined the end of the torsions to render them useless and keep them in for weight. Also if they are removed you could also cut down the torsion tube, again, i have come across cars with the 'banana' arms that protrude up into the rear of the body removed, relying on the two aluminum castings on the end of the torsion tube for connection to the body. Another point when removing torsions is the upgrade of the spring plate bushes - if there is no torsion to stop lateral movement you will have a lot of movement there (where the spring plate joins the torsion) (there is already movement there when under extreme loading - usually from worn bushes). Much greater loads will be placed on the lower coilover bolts, would want to upgrade these to those sold by a US shop. Whilst i mention the coilovers - if torsions removed, the rubber in the coilover mounts are unlikely to be sufficiently robust over prolonged use (can't rcall what the KW's have), therfore preference would be for solid bushing (rose jointed) coilovers.

JP

 

[944Turbo]

I have seen a picture of a fractured aluminium arm on a car running with no torsions in the US - It was a few (5+) years ago on rennlist and it may have been a race car running fairly aggressive springs,
Tony

 

[sawood12]

Really to anyone out there looking at suspension options - if the cost of installation of any other option comes anywhere near 85% - 90% of the cost of KW then go for the KW. The only reason to compromise with any other option is cost, but if you're not saving a significant amount of money you'd be crazy not to spend that relatively little extra and go for the KW.

 

[stevespic]

O.k....If you were me what would you do ? The car dose a round 4k a year, It dosent realy go any where between the end of Sep to mid March, between these months the car will vist the Nurburgring 3 to 4 times and complete around 20 to 24 laps per vist, these trips to germany will be the only track work the car gets besides may be one track day at combe or silverstone,other than that the car is used for visting motor sport events and car shows around the u.k.(may be 5 to 9 events between those months) and thats it realy, i try to run it out at leaste twice a week when i can for a 20 mile round trip if i havnt got any thing planned.... The car has always felt solid to the ground at high speeds and in corners on and off track... being as i live in swindon and we have a few round abouts here i have to say i do notice the car body rolling a bit but from speaking to other 44 members this can be cleared up by fitting the MO30 ARBs and castor mounts, polly bushes ect...which i already plan to do, So the big question is do you think this usage warrents fitting the KW for £2500 or do you think that the Konis for around £1400 would surfice for the job that the cars is doing ... I think if the car was being tracked around ten times a year then the KW would be money well spent, i know most of you guys are for the KW and i guess it comes down to what i more do i want from the car, and the answer to that is not a lot realy, less body roll and may be a slightly lower ride hight...and thats it realy...[]

 

[Hilux]

The car has always felt solid to the ground at high speeds and in corners on and off track... being as i live in swindon and we have a few round abouts here i have to say i do notice the car body rolling a bit but from speaking to other 44 members this can be cleared up by fitting the MO30 ARBs and castor mounts, polly bushes ect...which i already plan to do

If its a cost thang and your happy to have a `relatively` soft ride and wallow (Mo30 is a soft road system that is adjustable at the front) even if it is refurbed then go for it. If you want a harder but well damped ride then its KW every time.

I personally would also recommend uprating the ARB`s as the Mo30 are too soft IMHO and you`ll still get roll. You`ll need to brace the Mo30 ARB mounts too.

 

[edh]

I'm hoping to get a back to back comparison with Scott's car fairly soon. Mine is on Leda, probably due for a refresh this winter as the dampers have seen a fair few miles & plenty of track use. Part of me is hoping that the KW's are a mile ahead, but then again, part of me is hoping the Ledas stand up well in comparison []. I think Leda are still alive, but have moved up to Ashbourne (nr Derby).

When we get round to it we should have an interesting comparison -mine is a 250 turbo with a LBE and Vitesse MAF, Scott's is a 220 with DPW & MBC.

I don't think M030 arb's are going to stop the car rolling, mine still does, particularly when compared with my Integra type R - We'll see how well the KW's work on controlling the body compared to my Ledas. We're both running similar arb's (albeit I have a 968 M030 rear bar).

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: spic01

O.k....If you were me what would you do ?

If your buget is sub £2k then that is really the KW option out of the window (your really looking at £3k installed) or any other rear coil-over kit that requires re-indexing of the TB's. Therefore you are really looking at an upgrade of the stock suspension. Bear in mind that M030 and 968CS spring rates are still relatively soft so on track you will roll around, but in anycase Beefing up your springs isn't really an option as you will have to beef up your TB's or install rear coil-overs to balance against uprated springs and then you're back into re-indexing territory and you may as well go KW.

Your only other option is go with stock springs, uprated Koni shoks and beefed up ARB's. This way you'll get a compliant ride on the road but should control body roll better. Weltmiester ARB's are the ones to go for if your buget will stretch, but failing that 968 M030 with KLA Industries drop-link support brackets. Therefore i'd say go for stock springs, Koni inserts with beefed up ARB's and renew your bushings and maybe even Racers Edge top mounts. This will definately give you a vast improvement over what you've probably got.

 

[stevespic]

This was my list so far ...

968CS FRONT SPRINGS £87.68
968 FRONT M030 ROLL BAR £114.40
968 REAR M030 ROLL BAR FOR MANUAL TRANSMISSION £64.69
968cs Castor mounts
Up rated bushes for the ARBs
KLA Up rated drop links supports for the ARBs
KLA top mounts
Koni sport adjustables
and then the 4 wheel set-up......

3k for a suspension up grade....Moneys not realy the issue but the 3k price tag just seems wrong !!! when i only paid 5and a half K for the car 4 years a go and for the jobs its doing well.......Scott do you think the CS springs are a waste of time then ?

Cheers steve...

 

[sawood12]

I wouldn't say the CS springs are a waste of time, but by my (possibly twisted) logic says that because they are stiffer than bone stock (the same rates as M030 but are non progressive) stiffening up your front and not your rear will possibly have adverse effects - and to stiffen up the rear you're into new TB or rear coil-over territory, which increases cost considerably such that you may as well go the whole hog. Half the cost of my KW was the installation and the other bits and bobs that went with that (not too much actually).

Obviously if you cannot justify the cost of the KW then that is a huge mental mountain to climb. I personally didn't think of it that way. I see my 944 as a hobby and when I look at what friends spend on Golf , my KW install is about two years subs at a golf club without factoring in the cost of balls (they seem to spend alot on balls!), clubs (because you've got to have the very latest) and Pringle sweaters. Also my brother is a keen mountain biker and has gone through two £1200 mountain bikes in the time i've had my KW, so in those terms it suddenly seems very good value, especially if you consider the KW is good for 10 - 20yrs if I were to keep the car that long.

Though having said that my logic is tested when I look at my ever growing wish list. By the time i've got my A/C fixed, replaced head gasket and clutch in preparation of installing a few other mods i'm looking at almost what i've spent in total on the car so far in 5yrs all over again!! And the fact i'm enjoying her so much in her current form makes me question it all the more.

 

[steve 944t]

The re-indexing has been discussed at some length and until now I have resisted posting on this thread, but the fact is I had KW fitted to my car without re-indexing. I am not saying I am right and everyone else is wrong, far from it. I suspect I was fortunate in the amount of adjustment available in the eccentrics in my car. The rear of my car is certainly not jacked up. The suspension works fantasticly well - as can be confirmed by a couple of members on here who passengered with me at Silverstone in May.
It is clear from your posts that you are very keen on the KW. Why not have a chat with Olly or Darren at RPM? They fitted mine and Darren's own car runs on KW (although he may have sold this one now), so they are very familar with it. I have no doubt that re-indexing is the correct way to go (although the KW installation instructions simply say to set the eccentrics to the lowest setting), but it could still be an option for you.
Finally, not sure from your profile whereabouts you are, but I will be at the Goldtrack evening at Silverstone on Tuesday and you (and anyone else for that matter) are very welcome to come for a passenger ride.

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: sawood12
I wouldn't say the CS springs are a waste of time, but by my (possibly twisted) logic says that because they are stiffer than bone stock (the same rates as M030 but are non progressive) stiffening up your front and not your rear will possibly have adverse effects

I would go along with that. I fitted CS springs to my S2 while retaining the original 24 mm rear torsion bars and although there is no adverse effect that I am aware of - the handling is still significantly far better than with the original springs - the rear feels softer than it should be. I actually did not notice this until I bought the turbo which, regardless of it being overall quite stiffer than the S2, is better balanced stiff-wise between front and rear than the S2.

 

[Hilux]

I don't think M030 arb's are going to stop the car rolling, mine still does, particularly when compared with my Integra type R - We'll see how well the KW's work on controlling the body compared to my Ledas. We're both running similar arb's (albeit I have a 968 M030 rear bar).

Mo30 ARB`s wont stop the car pitching and rolling all over the place, it is still a pretty soft system and softer than modern cars as per above. Remember Mo30 in 944`s is a 20 year old design reliant upon compliance under control with large aspect ratio tyres involved as against modern tightly controlled multi linked systems designed to minimise roll and keep the rubber bands in contact with the black stuff. In fact I would wager the difference over standard ARB`s will not be that noticeable. However we are not all track monkeys so for road and most people it is fine.

ARB`s help reduce the weight transfer so the KW system is compromised a little with OEM ARB`s IMHO so I trialled Fens car and also fitted Weltmeister ARB`s and consider it a brilliuant compromise as I now have flat cornering, even tyre wear/temperature with no feathering or scrub with only the tyres grip and heat limits determining when I go off [&:]

If you want to make the best of a good suspension system then uprating ARB`s should be on your list of upgrades but to my constant surprise is rarely mentioned on this forum.

BTW - As I dont how much to ask (so as to recoup some of the money I`ve put into the 951 and help fund my current track slag project) then I have a full set of s/h Mo30 going on e-bay imminently. Front struts and F and R ARB`s. Struts seemed ok when I had them on but I must assume they have a few miles on them but are working and the ARB`s are a bit greasy. Buyer collects from N Herts. Photos soon.