Turbo Cup value

Indi9xx · Jul 12, 2006

Anyone care to speculate on the value of an original 944 turbo cup.

Spec is as follows..

Genuine 944 turbo cup
Left hand drive (like all of them)
Genuine original Matters roll cage
Genuine seats and harnesses

Just completed restoration, including...

Engine rebuild (wasnt blown up, just had a rebuild for the sake of perfection)
Rebuilt alternator and startermotor
New brakes all round
New/remanufactured suspension
Refurbished Genuine Magnesium wheels with track tyres and Genuine Porsche alloy wheels with road tyres
New exhaust system
full body restoration including complete respray
All wheel bearings replaced
All suspension bushes and rubbers replaced
Every item of engine bay tinwork blasted and replated
Turbo completely rebuilt from the ground up.

In effect.. Every part of the car is as new and as it left the Porsche motorsport division in (I believe 1987)

Dry stored for 10 years prior to restoration! Yet anything which could have degraded has been replaced or refurbished by someone who was trained by the motorsport division back in 1988 to prepare and support these cars.

So what do you chaps think it would be worth?

Also.. do you think its worth more as it is.. or do you think its worth more in a slightly modified state (dual port wastegate, hybrid turbo, ecu remap, bigger injectors, improved intercooler, etc)

Anyone?

Diver944 · Jul 12, 2006

Hmmmmm, cars like this are difficult to value. I know there was a genuine Turbo Cup car for sale in Switzerland for a good two years and the owner was asking nearly £20k with a garage full of spares, but it went unsold [

] If I'd had the money I think I would have snapped it up, same as I would if it were one of the Le Mans cars or a genuine 968 Turbo RS

The sad fact for us is that with Porsche it will always be the iconic 911 that achieves good prices, but our own car will not.

I would hope that the car Jon is talking about could achieve £20k but it really needs a front engine water cooled racecar enthusiast to want it.

Fen · Jul 12, 2006

Hmm, 1987 944 Turbo in LHD. I've got £3.5k for it right now since it sounds a nice one [

]

On one level I'd agree with Paul I think, the psychological £20k barrier would be hard to break so it's a £19,995 car tops. In reality it could end up significantly less of course, as that's squarely in the money that can get something much "more" in many ways be that a squashed Beetle (let's assume nobody would consider a Boxster if they thought this was desirable) or something by another manufacturer. A quick car for the money it ain't these days so it needs someone who is either a collector with deep pockets or a dyed in the wool 944 nut (and even I'm not that bothered about them).

Personally I'd want it "standard". I think any value is in its originality, but that's easy for me to say as I already have a modified one (well, most of a modified one anyway). I might go on to put some bolt-on easily reversible tweaks on it to get a bit more out of it if I owned it, possibly including a turbo, but starting with a wastegate and remap.

Ultimately it's an old and largely forgotten race car from a manufacturer with much more glamorous forgotten race cars in its back catalogue, and while it could of course be raced today the classes it can race in would probably see it up against more capable and cheaper cars built from ordinary production 944 Turbo donors. I'd either build my own from a solid road car or buy an ordinary example already campaigning if I wanted to start Porsche racing, I certainly wouldn't start with a restored Cup car.

That could be the downfall, then. Us 944 guys don't generally have £20k in the back pocket for a bit of memorabilia, nor even the difference between what our current car is worth and £20k for an upgrade to another 944, especially one that would be LHD and probably slower than the one we had to sell. Anyone not into 944s might not really have enough interest in the car to care about buying it. That said I'm sure there must be one or two people out there who have the money and the storage to buy it and who have fond memories of watching them race when the series was current. Difficult one, ultimately.

Melv · Jul 12, 2006

While you are at it, would you like to value my '91 964 Cup Car?[

]

You haven't mentioned provenance -that would increase the value of the 944 Cup Car without a doubt.

944Turbo · Jul 12, 2006

Somewhere between priceless and worthless [

]
Tony

Fen · Jul 12, 2006

Provenance is indeed a big draw, but as none was mentioned I assumed none existed.

I have no idea about your 964 Cup car either, but being a 911 derivative it's going to command significantly more than an otherwise equal 944 Cup car all day long.

944Turbo · Jul 12, 2006

Think it would be worth more in good original condition but this also limits its appeal as it is probably slower than any 944T with a reasonable amount of money spent on it.

Were they seem welded?

IIRC they were around 300Bhp with stiffer wastegate spring, straight through exhaust etc. Bilsteins, anything else?

To be honest the provenance wouldn't change much or me, is it worth more because it won? had a famous driver? wasn't crashed? With a one make series the cars are basically the same just some had better teams. Its nice to trace the history contact original drivers, and I guess proving its originality would help to get better money. This will have an effect on its suitability for historic events, but then there isnt a historic cup race is there?

Tricky to value and I imagine to find a purchaser. Might make a nice promotional tool (should it be owned by a porsche specialist), especially if lovingly restored and kept in top condition - would have been nice to see at Brands for instance and it would ensure lots of coverage for said specialist.

Tony

John Sims · Jul 12, 2006

Didn't the ex Tiffany Dell Cup car come up for sale recently?

The trouble with the '44 Cup series is that few will remember it and even fewer be passionate over it. This being the case a genuine car is unlikely to command pride of place at anything other than a 944 gathering. As such it is unlikely to feature at The Goodwood Festival of Speed. So you need someone with significant disposable income who wishes to add a Cup Car to his stable - damn there are going to be shed loads of people who fit that description.......Not! (Well perhaps Bert or Jon [

])

The other option is someone might want to track or race the car. There are so many options at around £20K, including ex Touring Cars, that I doubt it would get a look in unless someone is particularly looking for a Porsche - but then if you had £20K to spend on a 944 Race Car wouldn't you have it built from scratch to your particular specification/budget?

I seem to recall the GT3 race cars a stupidly cheap second hand (in comparison to a road car) provided that you don't try to Road Register them - but I could be wrong.

John Sims · Jul 12, 2006

With reference to the "Would it be worth more as is or modified..?" question:-

I would respectfully suggest that, were it prepared to comply with the regs of one of the current Porsche series, a "Gentleman Racer" might purchase it as a turn key race car. But then it makes no odds as to whether it was an original cup car or not, it is just a well prepared car ready to go racing.

Considering it will have no sun roof or underseal and perhaps a light weight loom it could have the edge on a standard 944 race car, perhaps.

Melv · Jul 12, 2006

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

Somewhere between priceless and worthless []
Tony

Well that's it -I was going to say how good your car looked at Goodwood -don't think I will now!! [

]

Fen · Jul 12, 2006

That wasn't Tony's titanium 944 Turbo at Goodwood

333pg333 · Jul 12, 2006

Perhaps if you put it on the international market you may find someone out there with those said deep pockets and a sense of nostalgia?

Melv · Jul 12, 2006

ORIGINAL: Fen

That wasn't Tony's titanium 944 Turbo at Goodwood

Beg pardon -same plate. Yours?

Fen · Jul 12, 2006

Nope. I don't know who's it was to be honest, but I know it wasn't Tony's as his is a '90 or '91 and that one was an '86.

edh · Jul 12, 2006

How much would a 924 Carrera GT with FIA papers be worth? - I'd rather have one of those.

Just got back from Le Mans Classic 06 - maybe the CGT would be eligible for 08?

Some pics (not mine) to give you a flavour (apologies in advance for hijacking the thread

)

http://www.pbase.com/smarjoram/lmclassic2006

944Turbo · Jul 12, 2006

ORIGINAL: Melv

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

Somewhere between priceless and worthless []
Tony

Click to expand...

Well that's it -I was going to say how good your car looked at Goodwood -don't think I will now!! []

Are you saying its not between those two price points? [

]

I think I know who it was, its from the Dorset region, chap called Chris, my Avatar/ track show plates are different to my road plates, he may have spotted them on my car at the Dorset concourse and had a set made up. His is much cleaner than mine, but mine is quicker,
Tony

TTM · Jul 12, 2006

The "Swiss" car was sold back to France.

For a low-mileage unmolested car I'd would say a tad under £20k, but cars with a good race history might top £25k.
There seems to be some owners who put ads in the region of £30k but I guess they're nostalgic enthusiasts who are frustrated with the low prices of 944 turbos in general and don't really want to sell.

Not far from me there is an engineless french '89 for sale at £13k. It was reshelled after the end of the '90 trophy and features all the Cup gizmos.

There is little point modifying a perfectly original and unmolested race car. The more it gets modded the more it will lose value and end up corresponding to nothing (lose its image).

Diver944 · Jul 12, 2006

Oooh loads of replies to this thread since I left for work this morning [

]

As Melv said, a good provenance would help immensely. I know Mel has traced the full history of his car, with pictures and race results and the fact that Mika Hakkinen was one of the drivers in the series really helps. I have no idea who even raced in the 944 Turbo Cup series that supported the F1 circus, and even if I did I bet I wouldn't know any of the names [&:]

As for modifications, I see no reason why simple bolt-ons would affect any value, as it could all be unbolted very easily. Personally I think the original running gear should be crated up and a 16v 3.2 litre with all the modern bells and whistles stuck under the bonnet and enter it in the Porsche Open to challenge Mr Chamberlains 935 rep

As for the Le Mans classic in 2008, I am really hoping that the original 924/944 GTP cars that raced in the early '80s will reappear out of the woodwork. I have a secret dream to buy one with three 944 buddies and enter it ourselves

I belive Jon even knows where one of them is.

C'mon guys get your credit cards out

sawood12 · Jul 12, 2006

Didn't Tiff Needel race in the 944 turbo cup series? I seem to remember a 5th gear episode with him taking a trip down memory lane in a 944 turbo happily reminicing about his 944 turbo race days and ending his peice on the car by saying "I want one again..."