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Later today, The Safe Speed campaign will publish a substantial report into
road pricing. It's called "Road Pricing - Money for nothing except pricing the
poor off the roads."

The main conclusions are as follows:

* Road pricing can only reduce congestion if it 'prices the poor off the
roads'. Any imaginable system of road pricing would be very highly regressive
and have its largest impacts on the low-paid.

* Road pricing requires massive infrastructure, including the biggest IT
project ever. Issuing and collecting over 30 million monthly bills will be
extremely costly. In short road pricing itself is extremely expensive. The
likely annual running cost is in excess of £4 billion. £4 billion is about half
the sum that we are spending annually on the entire road network.

* Congestion is mainly the consequence of economic activity. This economic
activity is highly desirable and pays for many things including our schools and
hospitals. Proper transport policy should seek to maximise economic activity
rather than minimise congestion. They are not the same thing.

* The government case does not properly allow for the self regulating
properties of congestion. Business already works hard to avoid congestion
because it costs money, the rest of us work hard to avoid it because we value
our time. The road-space market is already extremely well regulated by travel
time. Adding 'special costs' in a road pricing scheme changes the balances, but
does not eliminate congestion. Travel time will remain the primary regulator.

* Once the poor have been priced off the roads, the better off will soon take
full advantage of improved travelling conditions, tending to restore the
congestion balance.

* The threats of future gridlock are false. Who would be stupid enough to sit
in gridlock going nowhere day after day? If traffic got that bad, people would
find alternatives, which of course reduces the traffic to a level that people
find acceptable.

* We are facing congestion difficulties mainly because of decades of
underinvestment by successive governments. This government appears to wish to
use road pricing as an excuse for another decade of underinvestment.

* The green arguments simply won't wash. If we need a road transport 'carbon
tax', then fuel duty is literally perfect, because each litre of fuel burns to
give a precise and equal quantity of atmospheric carbon. Road pricing would
cause folk to seek longer but cheaper routes, the opposite of the desired
'green' effect.

* There are far better alternative methods for managing traffic growth.

* There is only limited truth in the idea that 'new roads quickly fill up with
cars'. A 6 lane motorway built along the west coast of Scotland would not fill
up in the foreseeable future. Roads only fill up with cars when there is
'latent demand'.

* Private motor transport is the leading form of transport throughout the
modern world. It is heavily taxed, while alternative public transport systems
are heavily subsidised. There's nothing wrong with that but it is essential
that government recognises that a) Private motor transport is highly cost-
efficient, and b) it's is the most desired form of transport in all of the
world's leading economies.

* It will be difficult or impossible to avoid transferring traffic to less safe
routes.

* "You can't build your way out of congestion" isn't exactly a lie, but it's an
extremely poor excuse for under-investment. Congestion is a sign of successful
economic activity. When building more roads encourages more economic activity
that is very likely to be a good thing for society as a whole. We need to
measure and manage the economic activity before we worry about the congestion.
Congestion largely looks after itself.

* They claim that 'people in rural areas will pay less under a roads pricing
regime, and it is likely true that there would be 'winners' on immediate
transport costs. But the hugely expensive system would have to be built,
operated and paid for. This means that on average we will be paying much more
because of the cost of the system.

* A national system of road pricing would encourage a massive range of evasion
and frauds. Quite simply, many people would consider that they were better off
outside the system and find all sorts of subtle and creative ways to avoid,
evade and defraud the system This would add considerably to the costs both
through direct revenue losses and through high costs of enforcement.

* We are not reassured by government claims that privacy would be safeguarded.
It would be hard to persuade people that non-itemised bills were correct, yet
an itemised bill is in itself a major invasion of privacy.

* Managing non-payment is difficult and worrying. What sanctions would be
applied to those who cannot or will not pay?

* The protesters and objectors couldn't be more right. The government wants to
waste countless billions of our money on impossible dreams.

Commenting on the findings, Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road
safety campaign said: "The pro con balance sheet of road pricing proposals is
all con and no pro. There's nothing in the proposals which could possibly
justify the massive expense. It will price the poor off the roads yet only have
a limited effect on traffic growth. The central flaw has been to ignore the
fact that all of us are already doing what we can to avoid congestion."

"The people can see the fantastic folly - why can't the government? Is it
because it's not their money they are proposing to spend? Or is it because they
are not the poor people who would be worst affected?"

"Road pricing is a grand political design that would cost unimaginable billions
and deliver next to nothing - except misery and perhaps 'toll tax' riots."

 
Tony!!!! Have you actually read this??

As that well known green campaigner J. Clarkson would say - and please insert accent here - "this arguement has more holes in it than the holiest of holey swiss cheeses".....

I won't go through point by point, as I've actually got a level up on World of Wrcraft to finish [8|] but just a couple of suggestions,


Road pricing can only reduce congestion if it 'prices the poor off the
roads'.


That'll be the one's who are uninsured then? And, don't maintain their cars then? And, as the Daily Rant (sorry, that should read Mail) tells us, are all spongers?

Congestion is mainly the consequence of economic activity

That'll be Jane's new skirt being ordered off Boden, then having the chap come and return it because the colour was wrong. Yes - economic success relies on good transport. That is exactly why the UNNECESSARY journeys need to be stopped.

Business already works hard to avoid congestion
because it costs money, the rest of us work hard to avoid it because we value
our time.


Well, that is patently not true or DHL would heve given up delivering in London?? And, I wouldn't spend most days on the M25 wishing that it cost me a couple of ££ more but was reliably clear. I have to travel to get the hourly rate to support my (meagre but happy) lifestyle.

The threats of future gridlock are false. Who would be stupid enough to sit
in gridlock going nowhere day after day?

Just like we will continue to pack houses into the South East, and then say scr3w you when they nedd a dentist, water, school, hospital etc.? Maybe the majority of people are actually stupid enough to sit in gridlock, it gives them time to call into 5-Live....

This government appears to wish to
use road pricing as an excuse for another decade of underinvestment.


Can't argue with that one....[&:]

The green arguments simply won't wash

They don't need to! I don't care if the world is .00001 degree hotter this year if I'm stuck in traffic behind a Range Rover Sport delivering poor little Flora and Tarquin 100 yds to their school, as I am paid by the hour and I'm not earning! But, if we save the planet at the same time, hey - no problem from me.

There are far better alternative methods for managing traffic growth

Yep, see previous post for suggestions. Isn't it better to debate them, rather than just stoke up hysteria?

There is only limited truth in the idea that 'new roads quickly fill up with
cars'


Yep - as in "it's happened 100% of the time". Well, I'll except the M6 toll road, which has been criticised for not being fully used. Because it's ROAD PRICED....[;)]

I could go on. This really is a triumph of ostrich over common sense! I, for onr, really beleive that there are too many unnecessary car trips made each day, and the roads would be better for all of us (and the economy) if a small number of these useless trips were removed. Just think, if all the empty buses and lorries were kept off the road, it could only be a good thing. Well - continue the logic to the car use, and it would make a real difference. Remove the illegal drivers and cars, improve training and I'm sure road pricing would be redundant.

Phew. I'm off to do a search for "soapboxes" on e-bay. I will be collecting in the car.....[;)]


 
The answer is not widening existing roads and building the odd bypass, the answer is to massivley extend the whole infrastruction with completely new roads. For example, we could do with another motorway running paralell to the M1 and M6 running in between them. The rate at the number of cars has increased has totally out paced the rate the road infrastructure has been 'improved'. It would cost billions, but then the government gets billions from the motorist and the costs would be offset against all the people such a project would employ over its 20 or 30yrs lifespan. Look at France. Similar population to the UK but they have built hundreds of new 'proper' roads in the last 20yrs whereas the UK has built nothing apart from the odd bypass or road widening scheme. The roads in France are not conjested due to the expanse of the road infrastructure, not due to tolls or the fact they use their cars less.

I don't subscribe to the twoddle that new roads will generate more cars. A good healthy economy and the spread of wealth increases the number of cars on the road, and ultimately there is a finite number of people over 17 with drivers lisences, so build the road network to cater for that finite max traffic. Lets not forget that a car cruising at 70mph is far more environmentally friendly than a car stuck in traffic.

The conjestion charge has proved that road charging doesn't work. It wont affect the number of cars on our roads or the number of traffic jams. All it does is provide a huge revenue stream for the government. No wonder they are pushing it. And if you lived in a picturesque small country village how happy would you be at a vast increase in traffic and conjestion due to people turning off the main roads to avoid the higher cost per mile - it's the bypass syndrome. It's a nonsense. The only solution bar none is to drastically expand the road infrastructure. Simple. It's not rocket science.
 
very busy too, still working now, but,
who decides whose journey is more important?
Samantha in her range rover sport dropping the kids on her way to her job as an accountant or Mr McN on his way to work via the gardencentre - could a wheel barrow suffice and take up less roadspace< could a law be passed ensuring everyone tends their own gardens?
The roads may be quieter at half term, but then assuming a family holiday less people are at work as well.

I work from home mostly but also have to travel the length and breadth of the country - If I had to pay an extra £1 a mile to cover a computer programmers wage then I could no longer work without charging more than my customers can afford to pay. Fortunately for me my work is at or near airports so I could probably just about stay in business with a plane, this might give you more roadspace but if everyone started flying everywhere the skies would get pretty crowded and a plane can be seen and heard a lot further than a road.
Tony

 
ORIGINAL: Diver944

-snip-
However, did everyone notice how quiet the town roads were last week during half term? This is absolute proof to me that there are far too many children being driven to school. Back in the day I used to walk two miles to school, my own children walk 1/2 a mile yet they are far and away in the minority with most beng dropped off by one or other of their parents.

I have no idea how we can persuade a whole generation to get back into the habit of walking but it's got to be a viable start to reducing suburban congestion. I recently heard an amusing excuse that most children are driven to school because the roads are far too dangerous to cross with all the vehicles on the 'school run' [&:][&:][&:]

absolutely agree- the solution to congestion is to go back to catchment areas and get the kids to walk to school like I did.
 
ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

very busy too, still working now, but,
who decides whose journey is more important?
Samantha in her range rover sport dropping the kids on her way to her job as an accountant or Mr McN on his way to work via the gardencentre - could a wheel barrow suffice and take up less roadspace< could a law be passed ensuring everyone tends their own gardens?
The roads may be quieter at half term, but then assuming a family holiday less people are at work as well.

I work from home mostly but also have to travel the length and breadth of the country - If I had to pay an extra £1 a mile to cover a computer programmers wage then I could no longer work without charging more than my customers can afford to pay. Fortunately for me my work is at or near airports so I could probably just about stay in business with a plane, this might give you more roadspace but if everyone started flying everywhere the skies would get pretty crowded and a plane can be seen and heard a lot further than a road.
Tony

So we're agreed, then?
s13.gif


Samantha, she sounds lovely by the way, should be able to walk the kids to school, and then work at least a large part of her job from home. My accountant does the bulk of his work electronically now, saving time and money. The offshoot of this is less clients visiting him, and less dirty old lorries delivering mail. He works less hours, with less travelling and earns more money. Who loses? Possibly some post office drivers will become unemployed, but I've seen of a couple who should be off the road anyway......

I disagree that you'd be unable to work if you charged the road tolls as well. Do you think a central London plumber has not worked out that he can factor in £8 to every job? Are people moving out of London because the annual boiler service is now £8 dearer? Your clients would have to pay whoever does the work, that's why it's fair. They might consider a more local firm, well that's the point of reducing congestion. You might be able to reduce the number of visits and do more from home, I don't know. I do know it's physically impossible to do some jobs without being mobile - fireman, decorator, taxi etc. - and these jobs are currently more difficult and expensive because of congestion. I already charge travelling time if someone wants me to go out of my local area, if I could get there quicker but had to charge a small road charge, how would they be worse off? When I travelled for a living, I charged tolls, parking etc. and a mileage cost to reflect everything down to the stupidly expensive sausage sandwich at Watford Gap. That was 15 years ago, no-one ever objected as they wanted me rather than a local photographer and it was not practical to bring the new factory to my studio. I just can't see how, if everyone was paying the same amount, it would change anything except to make people cut their unnecessary trips down. Academic, anyway, as it won't be happening!

What is needed is for the employer/client to appreciate that a lot less travel is actually an economic benefit. Then, there's less on the roads and we wouldn't even be having this debate! Road pricing is unworkable in practice, only a fuel tax would work and that would penalize essential users and the rural areas. Common sense could solve the problem, but whilst no-one is prepared to think about it it will need legislation and that is where the real problem lies.

 
ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

I disagree that you'd be unable to work if you charged the road tolls as well. Do you think a central London plumber has not worked out that he can factor in £8 to every job? Are people moving out of London because the annual boiler service is now £8 dearer? Your clients would have to pay whoever does the work, that's why it's fair.

So soon everyone factors in the cost of travel, everyone else gets used to paying it and even if they don't travel they start to factor it in as well because it's a business expense. Once everyone is factoring in the cost of congestion charging and everyone is paying it then what is the net result? The chancellor has a vast amount of extra money to play with, everything costs slightly more to buy (so inflation has taken a hit and the economy has been prodded in an undesirable direction) and the net result on congestion is precisely zero.

I don't disagree with your sentiments regarding making the roads a less unpleasant place to be, I don't have a magic solution (perhaps I might suggest encouraging business to spread out throughout the country might help though, in excess of 50% by land area of the UK probably has quite acceptable levels of congestion), but the bottom line is that road pricing absolutely is NOT a solution.
 

The e-petition asking the Prime Minister to "Scrap the planned vehicle tracking and road pricing policy" has now closed. This is a response from the Prime Minister, Tony Blair.

Thank you for taking the time to register your views about road pricing on the Downing Street website.

This petition was posted shortly before we published the Eddington Study, an independent review of Britain's transport network. This study set out long-term challenges and options for our transport network.

It made clear that congestion is a major problem to which there is no easy answer. One aspect of the study was highlighting how road pricing could provide a solution to these problems and that advances in technology put these plans within our reach. Of course it would be ten years or more before any national scheme was technologically, never mind politically, feasible.

That is the backdrop to this issue. As my response makes clear, this is not about imposing "stealth taxes" or introducing "Big Brother" surveillance. This is a complex subject, which cannot be resolved without a thorough investigation of all the options, combined with a full and frank debate about the choices we face at a local and national level. That's why I hope this detailed response will address your concerns and set out how we intend to take this issue forward. I see this email as the beginning, not the end of the debate, and the links below provide an opportunity for you to take it further.

But let me be clear straight away: we have not made any decision about national road pricing. Indeed we are simply not yet in a position to do so. We are, for now, working with some local authorities that are interested in establishing local schemes to help address local congestion problems. Pricing is not being forced on any area, but any schemes would teach us more about how road pricing would work and inform decisions on a national scheme. And funds raised from these local schemes will be used to improve transport in those areas.

One thing I suspect we can all agree is that congestion is bad. It's bad for business because it disrupts the delivery of goods and services. It affects people's quality of life. And it is bad for the environment. That is why tackling congestion is a key priority for any Government.

Congestion is predicted to increase by 25% by 2015. This is being driven by economic prosperity. There are 6 million more vehicles on the road now than in 1997, and predictions are that this trend will continue.

Part of the solution is to improve public transport, and to make the most of the existing road network. We have more than doubled investment since 1997, spending £2.5 billion this year on buses and over £4 billion on trains - helping to explain why more people are using them than for decades. And we're committed to sustaining this investment, with over £140 billion of investment planned between now and 2015. We're also putting a great deal of effort into improving traffic flows - for example, over 1000 Highways Agency Traffic Officers now help to keep motorway traffic moving.

But all the evidence shows that improving public transport and tackling traffic bottlenecks will not by themselves prevent congestion getting worse. So we have a difficult choice to make about how we tackle the expected increase in congestion. This is a challenge that all political leaders have to face up to, and not just in the UK. For example, road pricing schemes are already in operation in Italy, Norway and Singapore, and others, such as the Netherlands, are developing schemes. Towns and cities across the world are looking at road pricing as a means of addressing congestion.

One option would be to allow congestion to grow unchecked. Given the forecast growth in traffic, doing nothing would mean that journeys within and between cities would take longer, and be less reliable. I think that would be bad for businesses, individuals and the environment. And the costs on us all will be real - congestion could cost an extra £22 billion in wasted time in England by 2025, of which £10-12 billion would be the direct cost on businesses.

A second option would be to try to build our way out of congestion. We could, of course, add new lanes to our motorways, widen roads in our congested city centres, and build new routes across the countryside. Certainly in some places new capacity will be part of the story. That is why we are widening the M25, M1 and M62. But I think people agree that we cannot simply build more and more roads, particularly when the evidence suggests that traffic quickly grows to fill any new capacity.

Tackling congestion in this way would also be extremely costly, requiring substantial sums to be diverted from other services such as education and health, or increases in taxes. If I tell you that one mile of new motorway costs as much as £30m, you'll have an idea of the sums this approach would entail.

That is why I believe that at least we need to explore the contribution road pricing can make to tackling congestion. It would not be in anyone's interests, especially those of motorists, to slam the door shut on road pricing without exploring it further.

It has been calculated that a national scheme - as part of a wider package of measures - could cut congestion significantly through small changes in our overall travel patterns. But any technology used would have to give definite guarantees about privacy being protected - as it should be. Existing technologies, such as mobile phones and pay-as-you-drive insurance schemes, may well be able to play a role here, by ensuring that the Government doesn't hold information about where vehicles have been. But there may also be opportunities presented by developments in new technology. Just as new medical technology is changing the NHS, so there will be changes in the transport sector. Our aim is to relieve traffic jams, not create a "Big Brother" society.

I know many people's biggest worry about road pricing is that it will be a "stealth tax" on motorists. It won't. Road pricing is about tackling congestion.

Clearly if we decided to move towards a system of national road pricing, there could be a case for moving away from the current system of motoring taxation. This could mean that those who use their car less, or can travel at less congested times, in less congested areas, for example in rural areas, would benefit from lower motoring costs overall. Those who travel longer distances at peak times and in more congested areas would pay more.

But those are decisions for the future. At this stage, when no firm decision has been taken as to whether we will move towards a national scheme, stories about possible costs are simply not credible, since they depend on so many variables yet to be investigated, never mind decided.

Before we take any decisions about a national pricing scheme, we know that we have to have a system that works. A system that respects our privacy as individuals. A system that is fair. I fully accept that we don't have all the answers yet. That is why we are not rushing headlong into a national road pricing scheme. Before we take any decisions there would be further consultations. The public will, of course, have their say, as will Parliament.

We want to continue this debate, so that we can build a consensus around the best way to reduce congestion, protect the environment and support our businesses. If you want to find out more, please visit the attached links to more detailed information, and which also give opportunities to engage in further debate.

Yours sincerely,

Tony Blair

Both the
 
I am all for rationed carbon emissions. You can fly, walk, sleep , heat, drive all you like no matter how much you earn as long as your emmissions don't exceed x tons a year. That would stop the few who can afford breakfast in New York junkets while still allowing someone on average wage to still take his kids to the beach once a year.

How could this work? Simple. CO2 account, with a swipe card totting up the carbon emitted through the purchase of fuel, electricity, gas, flights etc etc. When you are at you limit, well boo hoo. Time to light your 8 bedroom mansion with glow in the dark stickers and push you Range Rover to ballet practice with the kids staring out the windows wondering what its like to live in a two bed council flat with lights that work.

Wealth gives you no more the right to pollute as it does to sh!t in the street.

 
Rightly or wrongly wealth does give you the right to sh!t in the street - at least it would if that were a desirable thing to want to do, those who could afford it would do it. Everything comes down to money either as an enabler to directly buy what you want or more indirectly such as buying the favour of others or the best legal help when in trouble. There is very little that can't be bought and CO2 allowance would be absolutely no exception.
 
I am going to send a similarly worded reply to 'Mr Blair' as soon as I get back into the office.

Mr Blair, if, indeed, you did write and compose your reply and have not had it ghost written by a faceless civil servant, I cannot believe that the foremost minister in our government has such an apalling grasp of the English language that sentences and paragraphs are seen to begin with conjunctions, that is, the words 'and' and 'but', formerly 'schoolboy howlers' which, from the outset, immediately make me dismissive of anything that is written based on the premise that if the writer of the email can't be bothered with the grammar, due to poor education, then can the writer of the email be entrusted with the running of the country?
You may notice that the previous paragraph was a long sentence and therein lies a hint for our judicial system.
 
I noticed the sentences starting with prepositions too. It's one of my pet hates, remembering clearly as I do struggling as a 7 year old with writing some composition and not being able to think of how to start the sentence any way but with "but". My teacher suggested perhaps that wasn't a place for a new sentence and the lesson stuck with me ever since.
 
It looks like the letter our beloved PM sent out has gone to all who signed the petition. For some reason mine was identified by Outlook as Junk Mail.:ROFLMAO:
 
The only way a carbon trading mechanism would be truely effective is if the whole world bought into it. What's the point in the UK slitting it's own throat, making itself more uncompetitive in the international markets, costing it's citizens more money for nothing in return when the UK is way, way down on the list of carbon emitters, just so we can be an example to the rest of the world?? Unbelievable. I can't believe that politicians think we will buy this sort of clap trap. The rest of the world will take no notice whatsoever and will laugh at us. The yanks will continue to drive 7 ltr 2-seat pick-up trucks and the Chinese will continue to build and commission two coal fired power stations a week. Do the polititcians really and truly think that they will be looking over their shoulders in envy to the 'green' UK? Not at all.

I wouldn't mind the government peddalling this clap trap if I thought for one second they were doing it for the reasons they are saying i.e. reducing congestion and pollution, but in reality we can all see through their plans for what they are. A vast and massive revenue stream to cover up this governments complete and utter incompetant management of its tax revenue. They reckon that only 25% of the extra revenue raised by this government since it got in is actually going to good use, the rest is wasted in increased beaurocracy. As a result we can't afford hospitals, we can't afford the war on terror and we can't afford to fight crime and we can't afford to educate our children. But we do have devolution, which cost us hundreds of millions of pounds. Now there's value for money.

Don't get me wrong, despite my recent posts I am all for being efficient, I have a well insulated house, low energy light bulbs throughout and am aware of my energy consumption but I just get sick and tired of being forced to pay more and more just to live my life when it doesn't appear to benefit me in any way whatsoever and just makes it easier for oiks to opt out of life and live reasonably comfortably on our hard earned taxes.
 
I, for one, will continue to use my 4.6 Litre Range Rover. After all, I haven't used an aeroplane in the last 25 years.

We don't so much need to build new road as much as get back what we already have. I see two main road problems currently

The theft of road space. Look at the M4 bus lane. Look at city bus lanes. Look at the bottom of the M11 near the 50 MPH speed camera - three lanes have been taken down to two and a third lane that was perfectly acceptable to carry traffic for may years has been closed down and cordoned off with white stripes. WHY ?

Intentional disruption to traffic flow. Think LIVINGSTONE. Whay are there now so may traffic lights on main arterial routes. Why does the A1 have a set of lights on a 3 interchange that go green for 8 SECONDS when heading out of London ? That same set of lights allows on average 3 cars per lane to go through on a Sunday before waiting another 90 seconds. Why are all the roads blocked off in London ? Look at the effects of not widening the 2 lane section of the North Circular road at Bounds Green to 3 lanes to join the two other sections. I remember all the houses being compulsorarily purchased for this in the 70's. Despite 30ft green verges, there remains just 3 lanes - two in one direction and 1 in the other. I hate to think of the number of hours of traffic jams caused over the years from this stretch alone.

We don't all just drive for the fun of it. When the congestion charge (which I absoloutely refuse to pay any money for this to LIVINGSTONE on principle) was introduced a few years ago, I stopped servicing clients within the area. Why should they or I be penalised by the then £6 per day for nothing ? Since the introduction of the CC, I have not travelled in to or shopped in London i any way that incurred a congestion charge. A drop in the ocean I know, but when you add my probable £5,000 spend a year to that of others staying away, this has a profound effect on businesses within the area.

I pay road tax. I pay an obscene amount of duty on the fuel I buy. I pay tax on my compulsory car insurance. I am constantly hounded to pay for parking on the very streets that my road tax has paid for over and over again. We are hounded by a whole army of wardens, traffic enforcement cameras.

Who pays for all the street surveillance cameras, operatives and centres that now constantly monitor all of us? Does anyone remember being asked if they agree with this ? Does anyone know by which means the money is stolen from us and given to CAPITA to run such schemes? Whay am I paying to subsidise PRIVATE bus companies that run the london buses? Why does LIVINGSTONE refuse to give details about his contracts with CAPITA that are 'public' projects paid for with tax monies wrenched from me? Did anyone ask ME if I wanted a private toll road built as part of the M1 which has resulted in incidental costs running in to thousands of pounds due to the time I've wasted not earning an hourly rate while sitting in the congestion on that section of M1 caused by closed off lanes with no one to be seen doing any work ? Will I pay to use a toll road ? NO. I've already paid several times over for the existing road which has worked perfectly adequately for me over the last 30 years.

I believe that if we had a government who cared for the people and not in self-interest, control, expansion of it's own empire, taxation even after death and arrogance, we would reopen all the existing closed off lanes, PROPERLY phase those traffic lights that are needed and remove the rest, get rid of useless bus lanes and a whole lot more common sense dictated policies. The result - better and faster moving traffic leading to far less congestion and therefore pollution. Also the removal of an entire 'government industry' and therefor a lwer cost of government.

Oh yes, and send LIVINGSTONE, David Begg, the mad one from the Green party and the entire New Labour experiment off to Venezuela to see how they get on out there. They can even send us some cheap oil back [:D] [:D] [:D]
 
I'd have no problems with toll roads if they banned commercial traffic, caravans, 4x4's and had an unlimited speed limit with a minimum speed limit of 70mph. I'd gladly cough up a few quid to arrive at my destination alot more quickly.
 
ORIGINAL: 924nutter

I cannot believe that the foremost minister in our government has such an apalling grasp of the English language that sentences and paragraphs are seen to begin with prepositions, that is, the words 'and' and 'but', formerly 'schoolboy howlers'

Nice to see the English language is not dead. However, my pedantic linguist of a girlfriend has pointed out that "and" and "but" are conjunctions; a preposition is a word that demonstrates the position of something, for example "on", "over", "under" etc.

I had to look it up but she was right. If you would like this email translating into French or German the usual fees apply...[8|]
 
That being the case makes even more sense as it's ludicrous to start with a conjunction as you'd be joining nothing to the rest of the sentence.

Clearly in the light of the above you can legitimately start a sentence with a preposition, but I'm sure I remember from school being told that you can't. Then again something I realised many years ago is that teachers are just people and are as fallible and prone to being simply useless as anyone else so I may well have been taught it even if it isn't right. Same goes for doctors.
 
ORIGINAL: rob.kellock

ORIGINAL: 924nutter

I cannot believe that the foremost minister in our government has such an apalling grasp of the English language that sentences and paragraphs are seen to begin with prepositions, that is, the words 'and' and 'but', formerly 'schoolboy howlers'

Nice to see the English language is not dead. However, my pedantic linguist of a girlfriend has pointed out that "and" and "but" are conjunctions; a preposition is a word that demonstrates the position of something, for example "on", "over", "under" etc.

I had to look it up but she was right. If you would like this email translating into French or German the usual fees apply...[8|]
Yes you are right, I couldn't think of the right word, but unlike TBlair I don't mind admitting to a mistake. I usually manage to edit out ccok-ups before anyone notices them. I was probably suffering from conjunctionitis.
 

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