Wanted - 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose)

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

Except the 1000 cars are less attractive to many as most/all are pink with a garish interior! If they offered a meaningfull performance advantage I for one could look past it, but as there is effectively no difference I would prefer a nicer colour combo which is what I did buy back in 2000 and would do again. (assuming condition being equal)
Tony

As a 944, yes; I agree with you totally. An un-modified turbo S wouldn't be giving it's best, so save the money and buy a well-sorted "ordinary" turbo if you want to drive it regularly.

I'm thinking about the collectors, not the drivers here. If it's a "silver rose", to give it it's more widely-used name, that is going to sit for years clocking up near-zero miles, and being kept totally orignal, and increase most in value, it needs to be the "expected" colour combo.

Buying an immaculate SR with low mileage for £15K-plus, then sticking 30K a year on it and modifying it to 350 BHP with a cage and KWs, won't be the best way to preserve it's value [&:]. By the same token, buying an SR that causes all these discussions because the colour isn't what you'd expect, might not be the best investment over the long term? I can't say, but it would be my instinct that when there are only two left in perfect condition, the pink/tartan one will be the more desirable to a collector with the necessary deep pockets.

My argument is the level of difference - A collectable car such as a 964RS a 911GT3 a 2.7RS is a big step up in engineering and performance relative to the standard model - The TurboS isn't relative to the other post 88 turbo cars and even relative to the 220 Turbo. The Turbo is a big step up in engineering and performance over the 'Lux' and hence commands a premium.

If there was a 10,000 mile turboS in silverose and a brand new 89 Turbo in Black, silver, red, white etc. with a nice interior colour to match (ideally in leather) and they were both £25K I would take the non silver rose.

If it was a silverose and a lux in any of the other colour combos I would take the silverose even if the silverose was £25K and the lux £15k.

Silverose relative to the later 88 and 89 Turbos is really just a different trim (not even a lightweight trim as in say a 968 sport relative to a 968), how much more does an Escort ghia cost than an escort LX or in fact given the 'nicer' trim / colour combos on post silver rose cars how much more is an Escort LX than a Ghia?

The black RS escort being sort after relative to the white ones I can understand its an equally nice colour combo and very rare.

Now a 968 TurboS rare and very different performance to the 968.


Tony

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: PAUL RUDDY

The collector car market is very fickle as we all know and oddities within a certain marque can command a premium.

Take for example the original Ford Escort RS Turbo, only available in white .....except Ford made two black ones by special orders, highly highly sought after and both in the hands of collectors. The MK2 RS1800, again a very limited production run, 109 road cars, all white, except two in red from the factory, one a press car which was written off, the other is in a friends garage on the South coast.

When it comes to collectibles, would I have one that 999 people could have the same or one that only a possible few exist in colour/trim , the latter for me.

Cheers, Paul

so if there are 1000 silver rose cars and only 2 (post 1000) 1989 250 cars in Nile Green or Maraschino which is the rarer car? The performance will be virtually identical the later cars might have black leather.

Tony

 

[MartinRS2K]

Going back to my original post I already own a low mileage MY91 Turbo that I am very pleased with and have no intension of selling.

The reason I have made an enquiry about the Turbo S car is that I want another 944 Turbo and as the S variants are more scare and potentially will become more collectable I have decided that this may be a route I will consider going dow nif I can find the right car.

Alternatively if I cannot find the right Turbo S I may get another 944 Turbo if it is similar in condition, mileage and spec to my current car or failing that I may just put the money in the bank.

The Baltic Blue one that is for sale ticks all the boxes if it was a Turbo S but at the asking price I am not sure I would go that far for another Turbo SE.

As I said at the beginning when I started this thread I am in no rush to buy one and if the right car comes along then hopefully I am in a position to buy it. I won't just buy it because it is a Silver Rose/S and it is the only one available at this time []

 

[PAUL RUDDY]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

ORIGINAL: PAUL RUDDY

The collector car market is very fickle as we all know and oddities within a certain marque can command a premium.

Take for example the original Ford Escort RS Turbo, only available in white .....except Ford made two black ones by special orders, highly highly sought after and both in the hands of collectors. The MK2 RS1800, again a very limited production run, 109 road cars, all white, except two in red from the factory, one a press car which was written off, the other is in a friends garage on the South coast.

When it comes to collectibles, would I have one that 999 people could have the same or one that only a possible few exist in colour/trim , the latter for me.

Cheers, Paul

so if there are 1000 silver rose cars and only 2 (post 1000) 1989 250 cars in Nile Green or Maraschino which is the rarer car? The performance will be virtually identical the later cars might have black leather.

Tony

I think the difference is the two black RS Turbos are still part of a limited run and in a rare colour as well, just like a Turbo S in Guards red is a limited run car in an even rarer colour.

Presumably the '89' cars quoted are 'generic' 944 Turbos ordered in a customers choice of colour/trim, yes rare cars in their own right but still just 89 model year cars in colours that appealed to the original purchaser.

Cheers, Paul

 

[delays]

ORIGINAL: MartinRS2K

The Baltic Blue one that is for sale ticks all the boxes if it was a Turbo S but at the asking price I am not sure I would go that far for another Turbo SE.

I was under the impression it was?

I think terms are being confused here. Correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is that, for the UK, there only ever was a Turbo SE (1988 MY, Silver Rose, adjustable suspension, Burgandy Studio trim, ClubSport D90s, non-sunroof shell, LSD and 250bhp motor). Everything else was a Turbo (86-87, 89-92 MYs). For the American, Continental European, ROW markets, the model designation was Turbo S for the '88 250bhp Silver Rose special edition.

The '88 Turbo SE could be ordered in any of the regular colours part way through the '88MY.

So my understanding is that the Baltic Blue car corresponds with '88 SE spec, could be 88MY but registered in 1989. Again, you'd need to dive into VINs, logbooks, engine numbers, history to find the story.

1989 Turbos took the 250bhp engine, added regular D90s and came with sunroof shell (but left the 'S' or 'SE' off the model designation).

 

[scam75]

ORIGINAL: PAUL RUDDY

The collector car market is very fickle as we all know and oddities within a certain marque can command a premium.

Take for example the original Ford Escort RS Turbo, only available in white .....except Ford made two black ones by special orders, highly highly sought after and both in the hands of collectors. The MK2 RS1800, again a very limited production run, 109 road cars, all white, except two in red from the factory, one a press car which was written off, the other is in a friends garage on the South coast.

When it comes to collectibles, would I have one that 999 people could have the same or one that only a possible few exist in colour/trim , the latter for me.

Cheers, Paul

I had heard 7 black ones, one of which Princess Di owned, and 1 green one specially made for a Ford director!!

Stuart

 

[pauljmcnulty]

My argument is the level of difference - A collectable car such as a 964RS a 911GT3 a 2.7RS is a big step up in engineering and performance relative to the standard model - The TurboS isn't relative to the other post 88 turbo cars and even relative to the 220 Turbo. The Turbo is a big step up in engineering and performance over the 'Lux' and hence commands a premium.

If there was a 10,000 mile turboS in silverose and a brand new 89 Turbo in Black, silver, red, white etc. with a nice interior colour to match (ideally in leather) and they were both £25K I would take the non silver rose.

If it was a silverose and a lux in any of the other colour combos I would take the silverose even if the silverose was £25K and the lux £15k.

Silverose relative to the later 88 and 89 Turbos is really just a different trim (not even a lightweight trim as in say a 968 sport relative to a 968), how much more does an Escort ghia cost than an escort LX or in fact given the 'nicer' trim / colour combos on post silver rose cars how much more is an Escort LX than a Ghia?

Whilst I agree with you, I think you have to suspend the idea of the best "value", or the best "driver's car", when looking at collecting cars that are highly-valued. I wouldn't want a Miura, if it was only going to sit unused in a garage, any more than I'd want any low-miles 944 in concourse condition. It would be wasted on me, and I'd halve the value the first time I drove it to Tesco, or shoved two dirty dogs in the back.

That said, I appreciate that rarity isn't necessarily the only thing, it's about rarity plus desirability. A nile-green turbo is far rarer than a siver rose, but it won't ever be worth as much to the collector of museum-piece 944s. I'd say that only the turbo cab, cup cars, very early series-one cars and pink SR cars will appeal to that market. If you've got one of them with very low miles and exceptional, original condition, lock it away.

Anything else, improve it and drive the nuts off it. []

 

[944 man]

I see that there are mentions of the Turbo SE here, meaning a 250PS 1989 model year 944 Turbo. The 944 Turbo SE was what Porsche Cars GB called the car marketed as the Turbo S everywhere else. UK M758 Turbo S cars were marketed as the 1988 944 Turbo with Special Equipment. The 250PS model which appeared in 1989 and continued to 1990/1991 was the 944 Turbo.

We cant criticise dealers for not knowing what the are talking about and for making it up whilst we are doing it ourselves!

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: 944 man
I see that there are mentions of the Turbo SE here, meaning a 250PS 1989 model year 944 Turbo. The 944 Turbo SE was what Porsche Cars GB called the car marketed as the Turbo S everywhere else. UK M758 Turbo S cars were marketed as the 1988 944 Turbo with Special Equipment. The 250PS model which appeared in 1989 and continued to 1990/1991 was the 944 Turbo.

Well, not quite - the '88 turbo S was marketed as the "Turbo Cup" in France. They even added a "Cup" sign right of the turbo sign on the rear, and the same sign again over the glovebox.
Confusing really when people boast about owning a "944 turbo Cup". You expect the racer but soon find out about the usual faded pink-ish Silver Rose on CS wheels that have turned white because of poor attention, and torn cloth seats...

 

[MartinRS2K]

So if Porsche called them different names in different countries and continents what is the correct definition and name for each one in the UK?

1988 944 Turbo with Silver Rose body and 'pink' interior
1988 944 Turbo with Other colour body (red, black, white etc.) and Sports interior with options to match the M758 cars and no sunroof
1989 onwards 944 Turbo with options as requested by the buyer

 

[MartinRS2K]

ORIGINAL: scam75

ORIGINAL: PAUL RUDDY

The collector car market is very fickle as we all know and oddities within a certain marque can command a premium.

Take for example the original Ford Escort RS Turbo, only available in white .....except Ford made two black ones by special orders, highly highly sought after and both in the hands of collectors. The MK2 RS1800, again a very limited production run, 109 road cars, all white, except two in red from the factory, one a press car which was written off, the other is in a friends garage on the South coast.

When it comes to collectibles, would I have one that 999 people could have the same or one that only a possible few exist in colour/trim , the latter for me.

Cheers, Paul

I had heard 7 black ones, one of which Princess Di owned, and 1 green one specially made for a Ford director!!

Stuart

There were only 2 genuine Black RS Turbo's produced on the Ford production line (One was for Princess Diana and I think the other was for a Ford Director), but some of the white cars were repainted Black at a later date. The VIN Plates of the 2 genuine cars have a different colour code denoting Special Black (A3 or A4), but the repainted ones still show the colour code as White (B3 or B4) The number is the year so 1983 = 3 and 1984 = 4.

There were also 3 Red Datapost Series One RS Turbo's produced, but these were white shell cars repainted.

There are lots of myths regarding Lady Di's car. Lady Di's Black car is owned by a Large Multi Site Garage owner in Wales and he has "The Bonkers Collection" which is lots of different RS models in concours condition, some with hardly any miles on the clock

see link below

http://www.rsownersclub.co.uk/rsocbb/showthread.php?t=201436

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: delays

ORIGINAL: MartinRS2K

The Baltic Blue one that is for sale ticks all the boxes if it was a Turbo S but at the asking price I am not sure I would go that far for another Turbo SE.

I was under the impression it was?

I think terms are being confused here. Correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is that, for the UK, there only ever was a Turbo SE (1988 MY, Silver Rose, adjustable suspension, Burgandy Studio trim, ClubSport D90s, non-sunroof shell, LSD and 250bhp motor). Everything else was a Turbo (86-87, 89-92 MYs). For the American, Continental European, ROW markets, the model designation was Turbo S for the '88 250bhp Silver Rose special edition.

The '88 Turbo SE could be ordered in any of the regular colours part way through the '88MY.

So my understanding is that the Baltic Blue car corresponds with '88 SE spec, could be 88MY but registered in 1989. Again, you'd need to dive into VINs, logbooks, engine numbers, history to find the story.

1989 Turbos took the 250bhp engine, added regular D90s and came with sunroof shell (but left the 'S' or 'SE' off the model designation).

I think the 88 and 89 cars also had the forged wheels, the 1990 bridge spoiler cars had D90's but 1/2" wider on the front (7.5") It could be the 88 / 89 cars I have seen with them had them added later though

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: MartinRS2K

Going back to my original post I already own a low mileage MY91 Turbo that I am very pleased with and have no intension of selling.

The reason I have made an enquiry about the Turbo S car is that I want another 944 Turbo and as the S variants are more scare and potentially will become more collectable I have decided that this may be a route I will consider going dow nif I can find the right car.

Alternatively if I cannot find the right Turbo S I may get another 944 Turbo if it is similar in condition, mileage and spec to my current car or failing that I may just put the money in the bank.

The Baltic Blue one that is for sale ticks all the boxes if it was a Turbo S but at the asking price I am not sure I would go that far for another Turbo SE.

As I said at the beginning when I started this thread I am in no rush to buy one and if the right car comes along then hopefully I am in a position to buy it. I won't just buy it because it is a Silver Rose/S and it is the only one available at this time []

Sorry for taking you off topic and good luck with the search!

 

[MartinRS2K]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

Sorry for taking you off topic and good luck with the search!

That's not a problem, I'm happy to get more of an understanding of what a Silver Rose (or Turbo S) car should have thanks to all the input on the forum and I now know what to look for in terms of chassis number/engine number and specification of the car []

 

[delays]

ORIGINAL: MartinRS2K

So if Porsche called them different names in different countries and continents what is the correct definition and name for each one in the UK?

1988 944 Turbo with Silver Rose body and 'pink' interior
1988 944 Turbo with Other colour body (red, black, white etc.) and Sports interior with options to match the M758 cars and no sunroof
1989 onwards 944 Turbo with options as requested by the buyer

I understand it to be:

Turbo SE
Turbo SE
Turbo

 

[9212PT]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

ORIGINAL: delays

ORIGINAL: MartinRS2K

The Baltic Blue one that is for sale ticks all the boxes if it was a Turbo S but at the asking price I am not sure I would go that far for another Turbo SE.

I was under the impression it was?

I think terms are being confused here. Correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is that, for the UK, there only ever was a Turbo SE (1988 MY, Silver Rose, adjustable suspension, Burgandy Studio trim, ClubSport D90s, non-sunroof shell, LSD and 250bhp motor). Everything else was a Turbo (86-87, 89-92 MYs). For the American, Continental European, ROW markets, the model designation was Turbo S for the '88 250bhp Silver Rose special edition.

The '88 Turbo SE could be ordered in any of the regular colours part way through the '88MY.

So my understanding is that the Baltic Blue car corresponds with '88 SE spec, could be 88MY but registered in 1989. Again, you'd need to dive into VINs, logbooks, engine numbers, history to find the story.

1989 Turbos took the 250bhp engine, added regular D90s and came with sunroof shell (but left the 'S' or 'SE' off the model designation).

I think the 88 and 89 cars also had the forged wheels, the 1990 bridge spoiler cars had D90's but 1/2" wider on the front (7.5") It could be the 88 / 89 cars I have seen with them had them added later though

MY89 car has the forged club sport wheels, and it also had a bridge spoiler when I bought it but not sure the spoiler was fitted from factory.

 

[Eldavo]

Don't think your bridge spoiler is original though Paul, wasn't offered until later and it's a slightly different shape (I think).

If this thread tells us anything though, there seems to be lots of confusion around these cars - I'd better check I actually have a turbo!!!

 

[scam75]

ORIGINAL: MartinRS2K

ORIGINAL: scam75

ORIGINAL: PAUL RUDDY

The collector car market is very fickle as we all know and oddities within a certain marque can command a premium.

Take for example the original Ford Escort RS Turbo, only available in white .....except Ford made two black ones by special orders, highly highly sought after and both in the hands of collectors. The MK2 RS1800, again a very limited production run, 109 road cars, all white, except two in red from the factory, one a press car which was written off, the other is in a friends garage on the South coast.

When it comes to collectibles, would I have one that 999 people could have the same or one that only a possible few exist in colour/trim , the latter for me.

Cheers, Paul

I had heard 7 black ones, one of which Princess Di owned, and 1 green one specially made for a Ford director!!

Stuart

There were only 2 genuine Black RS Turbo's produced on the Ford production line (One was for Princess Diana and I think the other was for a Ford Director), but some of the white cars were repainted Black at a later date. The VIN Plates of the 2 genuine cars have a different colour code denoting Special Black (A3 or A4), but the repainted ones still show the colour code as White (B3 or B4) The number is the year so 1983 = 3 and 1984 = 4.

There were also 3 Red Datapost Series One RS Turbo's produced, but these were white shell cars repainted.

There are lots of myths regarding Lady Di's car. Lady Di's Black car is owned by a Large Multi Site Garage owner in Wales and he has "The Bonkers Collection" which is lots of different RS models in concours condition, some with hardly any miles on the clock

see link below

http://www.rsownersclub.co.uk/rsocbb/showthread.php?t=201436

I stand corrected! Awesome stuff. I had many RST's and a few cossies. Ah the memories!

Stuart

 

[scam75]

ORIGINAL: Eldavo

Don't think your bridge spoiler is original though Paul, wasn't offered until later and it's a slightly different shape (I think).

If this thread tells us anything though, there seems to be lots of confusion around these cars - I'd better check I actually have a turbo!!!

Bridge spoiler was standard fit from my90 as were D90's. However mine came with cs wheels. The my90 brochure depicts a my90 car with D90's and another with cs wheels. Mine is the only one I know that was supplied with bridge spoiler and cs wheels. And did I mention I dont have a sunroof either? Totally unique! Not for sale though lol.

Stuart

 

[PAUL RUDDY]

My understanding is production went as

Up to MY89. 944 Turbo (220bhp)
MY 88 only 944 Turbo S / Silver Rose ( limited run 1000+, 250bhp but on sale at the same time as the ordinary 944 Turbo 220)
MY89 onwards. 944 Turbo SE ( now 250 but purely a production model that inherited some of the Turbo S parts)

Cheers, Paul