Well, I may be some time ...

[DivineE]

I'm glad to see you've finally driven a turbo ..but I feel given the evidence (London driver/400miles to a tank) you've probably still yet to 'experience' a turbo. Perhaps a passenger lap in Tony's car at a track day would sort you out.

Also I did a track day in my 996 the other day and Christ that thing is fast! Put it up against weedy track motors like the Lotus Exige or a bike engine Caterham on track tires and it comes to life. I left the lot of them for dead! My turbo was the quickest thing out there by a WIDE margin! Even including the instructor who joined in the last session of the day in a VX220 turbo and followed me out until I'd cleared the traffic. As soon as we'd both passed the last car I opened the throttle and couldn't see him after three bends (admittedly I may have upped my pace a bit at this point[] ) but the Porsche was clearly superior.

I felt far from getting the most out of the car but I probably put in a few fairly quick laps and it really shocked me how it compared to the other metal out there. Following an RS4 wiggling about out of the bends as he tried to get on the power early I was sitting at low revs pootling whilst looking for an opportunity to pass. It was almost embarrassing to see/hear them trying when I felt like I was driving down to Tescos in the turbo. (Yorkshire accent) I've just wound t' boost up a bit on it, fitted some bigger intercoolers and added a 997gt3 shift kit so I'll try and get you some footage of the next time it goes out. Perhaps I could meet some of you guys there?

 

[MarkK]

Sounds brilliant!![]

 

[Neil Haughey]

Certainly does. Any track with decently long straights especially those after a quick corner is going to favour big power cars.

That V8 Morgan in last years CSCC race at Silverstone was a case in point, sat behind me through 3 corners then went past on the national straight like a motorbike, by the end of the national straight I reckon he had put 3 or 4 seconds in to me.

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: MarkK

I do understand what Scott is trying to say though,on some tracks a front wheel drive car can reel in cars with more power,i was at castle Coombe the other day in my 205 gti and was catching and passing lots of bigger cars 993s and Subarus,yup maybe they were being driven gently but i got some very funny looks in the paddock especially when they found out my car was pretty much standard and full interior etc... (KW V2 aside[][]),was doing some snooping to see which way the track goes for later in the season.
If it was stripped out as Scott says with some sticky tyres people would have been really crying..[]
On a power track especially, a turbo would see off an S2 this theory was tested plenty last season.

Maybe this says more about the driver again... []

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

Certainly does. Any track with decently long straights especially those after a quick corner is going to favour big power cars.

That V8 Morgan in last years CSCC race at Silverstone was a case in point, sat behind me through 3 corners then went past on the national straight like a motorbike, by the end of the national straight I reckon he had put 3 or 4 seconds in to me.

Yes Snetterton 300. Very fast circuit, there's only two points on the track where you drop below 60mph and only for a tiny moment. The rest is very fast and two long straights. Perfect turbo territory.

 

[simdel1]

ORIGINAL: tr7v8

After this comment "Damn these old cars. Never again. Money pit does not even come close" and this "Bloody classic car my arse, more like an old money pit." I suspect he'll be buying something modern.
So he'll be off buying a BMW/Merc/Audi etc. & finding that running costs get replaced by depreciation.

To be honest, I think modern cars can be just as much of a money pit as a classic. If the clutch goes on my Rover for example, it'll probably take the dual-mass flywheel with it. I'd be looking at a garage bill of nearly £1000 probably. Ok, so the parts for the porsche have a Porsche price tag, but you'd be surprised just how much basic parts like track-rod ends are on Rover parts places like rimmer brothers.

Maybe the Rover will cost less in the long run, but I'm hedging my bets by having an expensive modern and an expensive classic. This way I'm guarateed to have a big bill sooner or later! [8D]

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: tr7v8

After this comment "Damn these old cars. Never again. Money pit does not even come close" and this "Bloody classic car my arse, more like an old money pit." I suspect he'll be buying something modern.
So he'll be off buying a BMW/Merc/Audi etc. & finding that running costs get replaced by depreciation.

Sounds like he was no great loss to any of the Porsche forums[]

PS I wondered why I couldn't see anything from him here [:-]

James wanted the cachet of Porsche ownership; but he didnt have the budget. His friends had air cooled cars and he hoped for the 'experience', in my opinion.

I think that this explains his attitude to a number of issues, principally non-members access to the forums and his perceived despoiling of front-runners by less staus comscious owners, underming his own position as a 944 owner...

 

[wolfie308]

R.I.P sc0tty......sadly you know he's going to be annoying another marque/model owners' forum soon and no doubt berating his former pride and joy and other 944 owners.

£4.5k doesn't sound too far off to me - his car may have had a club valuation of circa £7k, but this sort of value is more to support insurance claims than a realistic expectation in the current market. I've spent £14k on my S.2 in the last 7 years, £3k in the last 6 months. Now that's what you call a money pit! []

However, I have an agreed insurance value of £5k which is pretty much what I paid for it, and I have IMHO one of the best maintained S.2's around. Still, doesn't mean I'd get that if I was selling it - only if it was written off []

Just goes to show keeping an S.2 in top order can cost nearly as much as a turbo.

Shame I missed the rant on TIPEC, but the thing that made me chuckle was that in his ad, his reason for selling was the same as his reason for buying - bought to use as a fair weather toy, and then sell because not getting enough use......and it's Summer.

p.s....isn't 9 owners quite a lot for a 'cherished' example? []

 

[333pg333]

I often have a giggle at the S2 vs Turbo banter that only seems to frequent this one forum. Having driven both on street and track I know what they both feel like. The S2 is a commendable car and extremely easy to drive...but if you can't drive a turbo properly to expose the superiority then there's no real point in comparing them. Still it's always just an opinion.

You could of course have the best of both worlds. []

Alpine white 3L 16v S2 turbo. Full description in this thread with pictures.

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/944-turbo-and-turbo-s-forum/468985-3-liter-turbo-registry-33.html

 

[Ewan]

I agree - the Turbo v S2 banter is fun. But after 20 years the market has spoken, and just as was the case when these were new, the S2 is the cheaper car for good reason. I'm with the market on this one, and happy to pay a bit extra to swap a lovely balanced, predictable (but underpowered) S2 for a fun and fast modified Turbo.

And on the topic of modifed Turbo's, mine's been with Jon Mitchell for the last two months. I'm rather keen to drive it before the summers gone, and Jon promises me that the engine is comming togther now...

 

[Neil Haughey]

No I agree, having owned an S2 as both a stock road car and now a lightweight track car it makes much more sense as the latter. It always felt underpowered in stock guise but with 200 Kg less weight to lug around, stiff suspension, grippy tyres etc. it all makes sense and then the roughly 200 Bhp/tonne of my race car feels just about right.

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: edh

ORIGINAL: MarkK

I do understand what Scott is trying to say though,on some tracks a front wheel drive car can reel in cars with more power,i was at castle Coombe the other day in my 205 gti and was catching and passing lots of bigger cars 993s and Subarus,yup maybe they were being driven gently but i got some very funny looks in the paddock especially when they found out my car was pretty much standard and full interior etc... (KW V2 aside[][]),was doing some snooping to see which way the track goes for later in the season.
If it was stripped out as Scott says with some sticky tyres people would have been really crying..[]
On a power track especially, a turbo would see off an S2 this theory was tested plenty last season.

Maybe this says more about the driver again... []    

I'm not trying to kick off a fwd vs rwd debate, I guess I'm saying that if you are driving a car you've got slot invested in, both financially and emotionally (we all get emotional about our cars!)then you a are bound to be cautious and not get the best out of the car, which sort of defeats the objective of a track day. If you're in a dirt cheap car which you don't mind thrashing then you will have more fun and probably drive quicker. A bit like the fact that the fastest cars on the road are hire cars. However, if you are accomplished drivers like Mark and Ed, then clearly a Saxon is never going to get you're blood pumping!

Regarding scotty complaining about his 'money pit', I think it is quite ironic actually, after he was slating me and others for actually driving our cars (god forbid!) I can honestly say that my 944 was quite a cheap car to run apart from the mods I bought. Just goes to back up my theory that if you don't use these things they will just eat your wallet - they like to be driven.

 

[Neil Haughey]

Amen to that Scott.

 

[Peter Empson]

ORIGINAL: sawood12
I'm not trying to kick off a fwd vs rwd debate, I guess I'm saying that if you are driving a car you've got slot invested in, both financially and emotionally (we all get emotional about our cars!)then you a are bound to be cautious and not get the best out of the car, which sort of defeats the objective of a track day.

I've never found it to be a problem in the slightest - perhaps it's just a lack of an imagination! I think it's fair to say I'm quite attached to my car, have a fair amount invested in it, would doubtless struggle to afford to recreate it if the worst happened and often drive without insurance on track. But once you get out on track all the concerns fade away, and trackdays needn't be an unsafe place to play (in fact I'd suggest they're much safer (well more controlled) than spirited road driving).

In my experience I think the worst thing is a throw away mentality with cars on track - the cheap bangers and the very wealthy who have expensive toys they could replace without making a dent in their bank balance are often the worst offenders and they're the ones I don't want to be too near on track.

If you drive within your limits, treat those around you with caution, and get some tuition, you'll get far more fun out of your car than possible any other way (making any costs incurred seem cheap - something someone like Scotty would never have understood), and it'll doubtless make you a better driver all round at the end of the day.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

In my experience I think the worst thing is a throw away mentality with cars on track - the cheap bangers and the very wealthy who have expensive toys they could replace without making a dent in their bank balance are often the worst offenders and they're the ones I don't want to be too near on track.

Which was what scared me most about the last Goldtrack day. I watched a lot of the afternoon session, and the two truck loads of rent-a-Radical cars were being driven in a very dangerous way. Add in a team of Caterham rent-a-cars, and several other serious race cars, and you'd not have enjyed being out there as a novice. [&o]

 

[sulzeruk]

I went for an extended test drive in Steves new purchase yesterday. I can report there is no problem with the boost at all. It is certainly a bit pokier than a stock car. It is just the usual don't bury your foot in the carpet and expect it to go turbo! The car drives nicely and brakes straight. There is some play in the front right hand side suspension somewhere and the steering feel could be better but a fluid change and non wobbly power steering pump crank pulley would do it the world of good I think. A day of ramp time and a good service and I am sure the car would be nigh on perfect. With the bodywork sorted, it would be a £6 to £7 k car I would think easily.
On the S2 and Turbo debate, an S2 is basically a turbo without the lag and 30 BHP down but with more torque and a more linear power delivery, they offer a very similar handling and driving experience. The cars are both fine around the town as the Turbo engine is still torquey enough. Stuarts (scam75) car has a much more progressive power delivery with reduced lag after fitting the Sci-Vision MAF kit, it made a real difference. With a set of chips and a DPW, I am sure it would be even better.
For me, the S2 is more civilised to drive, the Turbo always brings out the hooligan in me, I am amazed by how many roundabouts and slip roads I encountered yesterday!
Alasdair

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

In my experience I think the worst thing is a throw away mentality with cars on track - the cheap bangers and the very wealthy who have expensive toys they could replace without making a dent in their bank balance are often the worst offenders and they're the ones I don't want to be too near on track.

Which was what scared me most about the last Goldtrack day. I watched a lot of the afternoon session, and the two truck loads of rent-a-Radical cars were being driven in a very dangerous way. Add in a team of Caterham rent-a-cars, and several other serious race cars, and you'd not have enjyed being out there as a novice. [&o]

...or look at just about any low end tin top racing, some of them are little better than banger racing sometimes. There are 2 vids on youtube from Combe that springs to mind, one is from the local tin top championship when about 1/2 dozen cars got destroyed on the first lap, the other that really stands out is in car footage from the MX-5 championship showing a guy raming another car repeatedly to get back at him.

Both of these from the same race:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUyZHH4ga5M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4fd3WzNLjo

The MX-5 incident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co88txvfzHA