What to buy ?

[Fen]

Oooh, I missed the cue for my soapbox and one of my favourite subjects [] Yes, the 968 is an 944 in a frock. A 944 S2 in a frock in fact and I believe that in addition to us jokingly referring to them as the S3 on here that was actually the original intention in Stuttgart also until the new frock was desgined. Personally I find it easy to discount the '68 for 3 reasons:1. I find the front end styling "challenging" (but I like the back)2. They are effectively an S2 and my heart is firmly in the forced induction camp, plus being S2-based they don't get LSD, big brakes, hardened drive shafts, air-con, leather etc. as standard (and where's the fun if you don't have leather and air-con to rip out [])?3. They cost 50%-100% more than a comparable S2 yet are only marginally "better" cars. Quite how Porsche managed to introduce variable cam timing and MAF and only get a 29bhp gain is beyond me. Add to that the fact S2s make the book 211bhp and 68s rarely make quoted 240 unmodified and it's even more of a conundrum. I predict the backside is about to fall out of 968 prices as those not "in the know" will consider an early Bogster to be better (and they will be available for what they are really worth soon []), and those who are in the know will realise the 944S2 is 90% of the 968 therefore the price premium should be more like 10%. I further predict a good late 944 Turbo will in the not too distant future be worth more than a comparable 968.

 

[shipy]

No problem Mikey

[]
If you decide you don't want all those troublesome timing chains and tensioners and want a fully sorted lower maintenance 2.7 let me know. []

rgds
lyndon

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: Fen

Oooh, I missed the cue for my soapbox and one of my favourite subjects [] Yes, the 968 is an 944 in a frock. A 944 S2 in a frock in fact and I believe that in addition to us jokingly referring to them as the S3 on here that was actually the original intention in Stuttgart also until the new frock was desgined. Personally I find it easy to discount the '68 for 3 reasons:1. I find the front end styling "challenging" (but I like the back)2. They are effectively an S2 and my heart is firmly in the forced induction camp, plus being S2-based they don't get LSD, big brakes, hardened drive shafts, air-con, leather etc. as standard (and where's the fun if you don't have leather and air-con to rip out [])?3. They cost 50%-100% more than a comparable S2 yet are only marginally "better" cars. Quite how Porsche managed to introduce variable cam timing and MAF and only get a 29bhp gain is beyond me. Add to that the fact S2s make the book 211bhp and 68s rarely make quoted 240 unmodified and it's even more of a conundrum. I predict the backside is about to fall out of 968 prices as those not "in the know" will consider an early Bogster to be better (and they will be available for what they are really worth soon []), and those who are in the know will realise the 944S2 is 90% of the 968 therefore the price premium should be more like 10%. I further predict a good late 944 Turbo will in the not too distant future be worth more than a comparable 968.

You forgot the fact that 968's were also cheaper than 944T's (and S2's?) despite being later so there was probably some economising going on during the development.
Tony

 

[Guest]

OK, but getting back onto the original subject....

So I want a nice S2, preferably with aircon. I know that I should buy something which has been really well maintained, possibly in preference to a lower mileage item which has been less well looked after, as the engines need TLC like the rest of us.

But what about the other bits ? Eg the gearbox, shocks, engine mounts and running gear ? While I'm checking the service history for belt replacements, what non-enginey bits should I also look out for on a car which has done 135K miles ?

 

[pae]

ORIGINAL: Mikey

OK, but getting back onto the original subject....

Nice try, Mikey. There's some really useful info here, but you have to let them have their little ramble and take a few diversions on the way [] [] . Anyway, back to the subject...

Phil

 

[Fen]

Check the brakes are strong with not too heavy or dead a pedal (they should be heavier than an over-servo'd modern car but not excessively so and very feelsome). If there is a bill for several hundred pounds of brake refurbishment then so much the better. Search for "plate lift" on here and you'll see the reason in detail but basically bimetallic corrosion betwen the calliper and some steel plates cause the pads to bind. Check for corrosion especially behind all 4 wheels and along the sill bottom, particuarly beneath the rear corners of the door. You don't want any blistering at all if possible and certainly nothing of significance on the sills. Look also under the sills as much as you can - the plastic trim prevents getting a really good look though. Check panel gaps. You should be able to drive a bus through them, but they should be even. Gearboxes are frequently noisy. A whine is OK and it will go on for a long time like that if you can live with it. Mine sounds like a (real) Mini when the boot carpet removed. Suspension will likely be tired. It's about £500 for new struts and rear shocks and most people with S2s who have fittes new standard stuff say it transforms the car. You might want to throw an extra £80 at 968 castor mounts while you're at it. If the ball joints on the front have gone they can be refurbed for abou £150 a side (less if you DIY it) or it's £450 a side for new arms from Porsche. Other than that only the ARB bushes or drop links on the front go in terms of suspenders and they are cheap and easy to replace. You might have leaks of water into the car, a sunroof that doesn't work properly etc. but they are cheap to fix (takes time tracing leaks maybe). PAS can leak and a recon rack is about £150 I think. Driveshaft joints can get noisy - there are 4 and they are about £60 each, but unlikely all will go at once. Wheel bearings are no more prone to failure than other cars, but the rears are a pig to replace. Check everything works - they have very few toys and most a reliable, but trim and internals cost money if they aren't right. Clock displays spontaneously break and it's at least £50 for a used replacement (£250 or £350 new), air con is expensive to fix if it doesn't work. Seats wear well so should not be shabby unless mileage is huge. They go first on the driver's backrest bolster. Backrests can be swapped side to side to even the wear (worth doing if you get one starting to show wear). Desirable options are air-con, leather, sports seats (much bigger bolsters; if you are in any doubt the seat you're looking at is not sports), "M030" if you can find it for bigger front brakes and adjustable suspension, or M454 for uprated suspension alone, 10 speaker "hifi" (fills the door pocket with a speaker grill).

 

[944Turbo]

Excellent list from Fen, its also nice to see the gearbox oil has been changed, same with the brake fluid and coolant which iirc have a section in the service stamp book.
Tony

 

[Guest]

Wow, that's good info, thanks Fen.

The one I have my eye on right now is a '91 job with the bridge spoiler, 968 brakes and apparently no rust at all. I figure that rust and cosmetic paintwork, and the general interior trim quality are vital things, as they affect your perception of the car (=pleasure of ownership). I'm not buying one so I can go fast - there's plenty of better ways to do that if I wanted to. But it also needs to work reliably, hence the question.

I see that 50% of respondents are in the 100K-150K miles bracket, so 135K miles is reasonable. Or should I hold out for a car with less miles - my feeling is that anything over 100K is pretty well run in anyway, so the extra 35 is neither here nor there if it was looked after well.....

Cheers
Mike

 

[mik_ok]

I thought std 968 brakes were as-per S2 brakes (?) M030 on each variant has bigger brakes. (?????)

135K miles shouldn't be any major issue, although you'd probably expect to pay less for a higher mileage car. Condition is however more important (by some considerable margin).

 

[944turboS]

Paul/John
We should put this as a sticky at the top of the forum as it is such a commonly asked question.

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: mik_ok

I thought std 968 brakes were as-per S2 brakes (?) M030 on each variant has bigger brakes. (?????)

135K miles shouldn't be any major issue, although you'd probably expect to pay less for a higher mileage car. Condition is however more important (by some considerable margin).

Spot on, standard 968 brakes are the same as standard S2 and 220 Turbo brakes. 135k is about right. Personally I wouldn't value really low miles as a lot of people who don't use their cars much don't store them particularly well and don't see the need to service them properly because they do no miles. I'm not saying avoid anything with 80k on the clock, but even that is little over 5k per year which is second car territory for most people. Remember most 944s were daily drivers when new and hence likely averaged 10-12k per annum, so to have dropped to an average of 5k per year nowadays suggests it has hardly been used recently. For a 15 year old car 135k is srill below average and suggests the car might have been used regularly throughout its life. The stamps in the service history book can give a better idea if the car has been in constant use or had periods of being idle. If it;s the latter it is not all that important unless recently; recent history (over the tenure of the previous owner and several thousand miles ideally) is far more important than seeing it had a driver compatibility check in 1991.

 

[Diver944]

Lots of good advice here.

The only things I can add are:

Don't get hung up on aircon and leather in an S2, there are so few around that you simply WON'T FIND IT. Leather and aircon were both £2k options each back in 1989. The basic car was just under £40k and there are very few with these options, even fewer with sports suspension.

Don't get hung up on low miles. Unless you find an example with every single MOT and every single service invoice with mileage for every 6 months for the past 16-17 years there is simply no way to verify that these easily clockable cars have genuine miles. They are built so well with such good bodywork that thay can hide 100k miles easily, so don't pay a premium for low miles.

Buy on condition alone and a good recent stack of invoices to show its been cared for. Brakes, shocks, engine mounts etc are all consumables so if they ahven't been done fairly recently they will be due soon

 

[Guest]

As you say, lots of good advice, so thanks one and all for giving up your time to put this wisdom into the computer.

I can live without aircon myself, but if I am to persuade the good lady as to the merits of a sporty motor on a sunny day, then something which doesn't cook the kids is going to be a big help. This narrows the field, but not massively so.

I will let you know how the search progresses.

Cheers
Mike

 

[Guest]

Just back from looking at a couple more. The one at the Saab dealership has a lot of little bubbles under the paint along the sills, so I walked away from that one.

The other one looks nice. It all appears original with the possible exception of the brakes which are the 'big black' variety. I would be interested to know if these are standard kit, but it's not like it's a big deal either way.

I also noticed that there is a crack in the filler (?) which fills the short vertical seams on the exterior rear bodywork between number plate and tailgate. There's two of these seams, one each side in the vicinity of the tailgate latches, but only one side is cracked. The sticker is still on inside the boot, so it's not been shunted, but I wonder if this might indicate something untoward going on underneath....?

This adds up to (hopefully) not a lot considering the age of the car - I'm tempted []

 

[944turboS]

The car with the "Big Blacks" may have been an option. Did you take a note of the option codes from the sticker in the boot or the front of the service book?

If you realy don't like the big blacks I will do you a straight swap for my standard S2 calipers. []

 

[sawood12]

Just because they're big and black doesn't mean they're Big Blacks!! You have to be very careful when people describe the brakes as Big Blacks or Big Reds. Real Big Blacks were fitted to the 928GTS and real Big Reds were fitted to the 993 Turbo and C4S (not sure about the C2S). Big Blacks were never a factory option on any 944 variant. The biggest brakes you could get on a 944 were the M030 brakes fitted with the M030 sports suspension option which were pinched off the 928S4. Big Blacks are effectively the same as Big Reds but the Big Reds were leading brakes (fitted to the front side of the disk) and Big Blacks are trailing (fitted to the rear side of the disks). Despite their name the Big Reds & Blacks are not not overtly bigger than their smaller versions (fitted to the 993 C2 and C4's) but as they were deeper to house the deeper brake pads and larger dia disks. You also need 17" wheels to fit Big Reds or Big Blacks whereas the 944 M030 S4 Brakes will fit behind 16" rims.

I've got a real fettish for big brakes and the ultimate mod for my car is to fit Big Blacks but that is way down on my very long list!!

On ebay i've seen people describe the black S2/220 turbo brake calipers described as Big Blacks so be sceptical unless you can verify by part number.

 

[944turboS]

Scott,
Do you know the correct part Nos. for the Big Blacks & Reds?

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

Just because they're big and black doesn't mean they're Big Blacks!! You have to be very careful when people describe the brakes as Big Blacks or Big Reds. Real Big Blacks were fitted to the 928GTS and real Big Reds were fitted to the 993 Turbo and C4S (not sure about the C2S). Big Blacks were never a factory option on any 944 variant. The biggest brakes you could get on a 944 were the M030 brakes fitted with the M030 sports suspension option which were pinched off the 928S4. Big Blacks are effectively the same as Big Reds but the Big Reds were leading brakes (fitted to the front side of the disk) and Big Blacks are trailing (fitted to the rear side of the disks). Despite their name the Big Reds & Blacks are not not overtly bigger than their smaller versions (fitted to the 993 C2 and C4's) but as they were deeper to house the deeper brake pads and larger dia disks. You also need 17" wheels to fit Big Reds or Big Blacks whereas the 944 M030 S4 Brakes will fit behind 16" rims.

I've got a real fettish for big brakes and the ultimate mod for my car is to fit Big Blacks but that is way down on my very long list!!

On ebay i've seen people describe the black S2/220 turbo brake calipers described as Big Blacks so be sceptical unless you can verify by part number.

What he said. In terms of the seams, there shouldn't be filler in there, nor anywhere near it. I'd try the magnet trick to see if it really is filler as it could be a crack in the paint only, I have seen it on several 944's. The thing it is doesn't exactly mark the car out as a nice one regardless of the crack being paint or filler. Anyone experienced it and know why it cracks?

 

[Guest]

Graeme, thanks for the offer mate but I'm quite happy with them (whatever they are). I think the wheels are the originals too, so presumably they are 16" and therefore the brakes are not big blacks (see Fen's post). Although they do have black calipers and they are on the trailing side of the disk. I will try to get the option codes.

Fen, I don't think it is naughty filler, as the other side looks identical but without the crack. It's certainly a crack in the paint, but the paint may be on top of something like filler that Porsche bung into the seam to seal it before the paint goes on. Or it might just be the way that the paint goes into that seam - ie leaving a discernible but quite shallow groove. And this is the only unpleasantness on the paintwork on the entire car, which I would have thought was pretty good for a 14 year old motor...?

 

[944turboS]

Once you have the list of codes a search of this forum will bring up a previous post of mine with a link to a full list online.