Which 997?

[tscaptain]

Hi tscaptain,

I thought I had blocked you on here, for a similar clash of personalities in the past.... Strange that we are still in a state of bind here...

This is a forum, not a professional advice centre. The forums as far as I know are here for members to express their thoughts, opinions and share experiences. If you continue to discourage this from happening by trolling the forums and making corrections instead of adding your own, you might find yourself at odds with people who are otherwise here due to a common interest in motors.

Okay. Let's try to be civilized here. No need to insult one another. This is a public place after all.

Hi Tamer

Not quite sure what you're problem is here. You may note I am an administrator on this forum and I certainly don't go around "trolling", as you put it! Like you I was only putting a point of view as a 997 owner of 10 years - not offering professional advice and offering an alternative opinion and not being critical of yours. If it came over like that then I apologise. In that time I have never experienced any problem touring with the coupe- that's all. The targa, or cab for that matter, may be easier from that point of view.

My other observation was simply that the IMS bearing problem and bore scoring are two separate problems. If that is wrong then, again, I apologize.

I don't recall we have been "at odds" in the past so maybe you are confusing me with someone else or on another forum?

As with all these things the OP needs to try out a number of different cars to see which one suits his needs the best.

 

[garyw]

These cars will eat the roads, so getting there and back will be a breeze and swift but, in terms of practicality. I would not choose a 911 for touring. [/b]

That's quite a strong statement to finish with!!

I guess it slightly depends on what the OP means by touring I guess?

High days and holidays are mentioned, which for me means the 997 is an ideal tool for those types of tours.

Yes the practicality isn't the best - so go buy a Macan or a BMW of sorts, but will that bring you the same fun when driving away on those holidays or touring through Europe/UK?

I was lucky enough to get to do over 50K of touring miles in my 997 and even with my wife we happily managed a fortnight away in a 997 many times to Europe, I even managed a week in Lemans with a tent onboard!

To the OP, I prefer the look of the wide bodied cars, that's a personal choice and when on my holidays/trips I prefer the long winding road rather than the straight line motorways, so I do prefer the extra power- so S would be my preference there, some like the lighter steering feel of the 2, others like the heavier weight of the 4- actually I guess that's probably why I bought the Turbo as that also had the reliable engine with worrying over the rare issues the standard 997 engine had, but fully appreciate that budgets aren't bottomless and prices do seem to be rising steadily- I'd need to put an extra 20K+ into buying back my old Gen1 Turbo.

As said, please drive both and you'll hopefully feel those subtle differences.

Look over the 997 diary and you'll see the places the 997 register has been in the last few years

To Tamer, from the outside I don't see this attack that you seem to find TS coming to you with, sorry it just reads as a normal forum response.

 

[unclewinks]

Well I can safely say covering 3500 miles in our gen 1 turbo on the tour of France

carrying 5 suitcases behind the seats

and in the front without any problems

what so ever

paul

 

[MR]

Again, thanks for all the replies and various points of view, they have certainly given me points to consider. The car will be used for European holidays and probably the odd trip to Le mans - done that multiple times in a Caterham so I doubt a 997 will be any form of hardship[]. Both my wife and I wish to do more short breaks so that will most likely be UK road trips and we'll most likely only need overnight bags and little luggage. For longer trips I expect larger bags on the rear seat will be fine as we usually travel quite lightly.

 

[raykelly]

Good luck in your choice! You will not be disappointed no matter what you choose.

I have a Gen.II C2 Manual and I love it! Fantastic car!! When i was looking...I had test drove a GEN.I C4S Manual and was more in my budget but it was very untidy, power and sound was great! I then test drove a Gen.II C2S PDK, great car and was a round the same money as the Gen.I C4S but it was also a bit untidy with small things broken etc.. etc.. Then I came across my wee Gen.II C2 Manual. The car was clean, mechanically sound and I just knew it was the one for me. It was also about 6K more than the other two but only had 35Kmiles. I had no preference on transmission, I just wanted one that was tidy and well looked after and it was the Gen.II C2. Ah theres a sweet spot around 3500rpm that just makes you want to keep going and going and the gear changes are superb! (plus i changed my gear shift to a short shift kit, even better now!!) I'm so in love with my car, words can not explain. The grip! amazing!

Think what I'm trying to say is, first you will not be disappointed with whatever 911 you select. Second, just test drive a few and see what one speaks to you the most ;-) as for me it was the C2. I love going on long drives in mine!! You will love touring in one.

My head was wrecked researching the 911s and the IMS, bore scoring etc... I decided that if I went for a Gen.I I would ensure that it had the IMS sorted and get the Bores checked before purchase. Anyway it didn't happen as I ended up with a Gen.II Albeit it was way over my budget but I don't have any sleepless nights worrying about the engine melting on me, no matter how rare the problems are Anyway, Porsche provide bumper to bumper warranty for cars up to 15 years old and the mileage is 100/120K miles. So you could look into that if you are worried.

I can get my medium size suitcase in the boot, which is big enough for me on a 2 week business trip, also room for my laptop backpack. Boot is not big but bigger than you think!

Good luck in your choice! Keeps us posted on what you choose or what you go to see. Be good to hear your thoughts!

 

[Timbo2]

Hi MR,

If you're going to be touring, then I imagine getting (things) in and out of the vehicle will be as important as the journey.

For example you may stop at a petrol station in inclement weather and need to reach out for your jacket, holdall or anything that's flung in the back parcel shelf (assuming passenger seat occupied by companion)

Whilst the 911 has 'some' room in the back, unless you're in a Targa, you will have a job reaching things in the rear parcel shelf or seats for that matter. You can't reach the rear shelf whilst seated in front, It is equally impossible stood outside, so the procedure is to fiddle with the seat, slide it forward... to make room to put your foot in behind the seat, to reach the rear shelf.

The 911's rear (passenger) windows do not open (unless in a cabrio), the rear windscreen (boot) doesn't lift, unless you have a Targa.

These cars will eat the roads, so getting there and back will be a breeze and swift but, in terms of practicality. I would not choose a 911 for touring.

The other thing to remember is that the 997 (may be same for other models) needs a special slide-fold-slide procedure to allow access to the rear seats / parcel shelf. Otherwise the head rests catch the sun-visor, which is very annoying...And would be even more annoying if you were on-the-road (touring) with no time for fafffing about....

I'm not sure what Porsche were thinking when they turned the rear interior into a claustrophobic place. Either rear window opening or better still rear hatch opening like in the targa-only models has to be the biggest missed opportunity for all 911s and it is for this, impracticality reason I will never buy a 'coupe' 911 again.

As for the 'S' and '4S' variants, take a look at a few maintenance cost scenarios to see just how much more it costs to run an 'S' model. For example, new-brake pads, new-clutch, Exhaust, Shocks or even a service.... Insurance, Road-Tax.....etc... Oh and also, the IMS and bore-scoring issues were predominantly on S models since the extra 200cc (3.6 to 3.8) meant thinner engine block walls?

The non-S is not only a lighter car by about 200kg (more efficient on fuel) it is a lot cheaper to buy run and maintain.

Good luck..

I've often thought that it would be easier to load luggage if the rear window opened, but the ass of a 911 is a little longer than that of a Cayman I think!

 

[MR]

Why oh why do traders advertised already sold cars and ones on which deposits have been taken?[]

 

[MR]

Could someone please point me in the direction of the service schedule for 997's. Is it mileage or age related or a combination of both?

Thanks.

 

[garyw]

Every two years or 20K miles

 

[raykelly]

Brake fluid every two years

 

[raykelly]

Major service at 40kmiles this is the oil, air and cabin filters.

When looking around the engine bay, you can shine a light into the air intakes to see what they are like.

 

[Tamer]

Looks like some have successfully made long distance trips in a 911. Some with 5 cases I hear.

I don't know what category you would call it but if you want a great car, one that you can drive as a daily, hit the track with occasionally (or often), or to keep in your garage and only bring out at weekends for sprints the 911 is undisputed all rounder king.

The suggestion of advantages of a Targa body in relation the 997 range for touring was due to my interpretation of for-tour-ing in the original post

tour tʊə/ noun

1. a journey for pleasure in which several different places are visited.

2. a journey made by performers or a sports team, in which they perform or play in several different places. However

I.e. Not just getting from A to B. In practice, a tour would include the likelihood of loading and offloading your luggage several times, hence the reference to poor access to rear.

During tours this may be something to consider. Nobody is suggesting lifting heavy suit cases over the rear hatch.

The 2006 911 brochure describes it this as "The hinged rear window provides easy access to the rear luggage area"

The implication of the structural differences (Convertible, Coupe, Targa) are directly related to intended practical use and something that didn't occur to me until after ownership. I thought this was relative MR's decision of which 911 to choose for his tours and other trips.

 

[STiG911]

Okay so I've no idea what Tamer is on about, but I've owned my '05 997 C2s for the last six years covering an average of 5000 miles a year in the process. Every single one has been a joy and a fair few of those have been trips of between 2 and 6 days from Mid-Essex to Cumbria, usually lugging all my Wifes photography gear as well as the required luggage and at no point has it been a chore. On most occasions I've actually got everything in the front boot unless it's been during the colder months, which often means just chucking a coat on the back seat.

My advice would obviously be try a few but if you want an engaging drive, don't get a 4S. I drove both back-to-back and while the 4S might offer slightly more 'solid' feel, but the 2S is instantly more alert and lively without all the extra weight (and reduction in luggage space that the front diff takes up)

BTW talking of weight, a C2 and C2s are between 25 and 80 kg apart in weight depending on spec, NOT 200 kg!

Costs - I get mine serviced according to schedule every two years, but get the oil and filter changed every year regardless as she does get driven pretty hard. In almost 30,000 miles I've not had any real major non-service costs as yet (which I'll admit it pretty amazing) although I did have to replace my battery last month as mine literally died on the spot one morning. I'd read about it happening but it's still quite shocking to have no car when you turn the key - then again, the battery was new along with the alternator when I bought the car and apparently if you get more then four years out of one, you're doing well so I'll take it!

Two sets of rear tyres one set of fronts and I've just replaced all four brake discs and pads myself for just shy of £400. (Genuine Brembo discs and Pagid pads - Euro Car Parts are a God send) As far as I'm concerned there's no way the differences between a C2 and C2S are going to be so far apart as to justify which way you go - the cars are not that vastly different apart from tyre size (rear only) and brakes, and actually a C2 might cost the same to maintain depending on how it's specced.

Go for it.

 

[tscaptain]

Yes indeed. The 997 register tours are the stuff of legend. 10 day South of France, Switzerland, Wales (North and South), Scotland, Cumbria, Ardennes, Beaune region, Normandy - not to mention the annual SW Tour.[] Even our GT3 members with scaffold in the back seem to manage ok[]

 

[Lancerlot]

Absolutely. Everyone knows for a weekend away, Judy takes enough luggage for a 2 week holiday. []

Yet at the time, in my 997 GT2 Clubsport, complete with roll cage, shell seats and fire extinguisher, we managed 13 nights on the Register's epic Swiss Alps tour with no discomfort and never ran out of kit.

Where there's a will there's a way! []

Regards,

[font="comic sans ms,sans-serif"]Clive[/font]

 

[raykelly]

Those trips sound great. Some day.....soon!

 

[Monkeynutz]

Hi Op, here's my 2p worth as a recent new buyer. None of this is fact just my opinion

Gen 2 versus Gen 1 imho is as much about budget as anything else. There's subtle differences externally and in the cabin but your research will tell you where they differ mechanically especially with the 4WD. The Gen 1 is cracking value if you can find the right one. I went Gen 2 because my budget allowed and I preferred the more modern aesthetics along with wanting PDK over manual or tip.

I urge you to drive the PDK with Sports Chrono. I still think it's the best box I have driven and with a Sports Design steering wheel (flappies) it is a riot to drive especially in Sports Plus. It's a trick bit of kit. In traffic and normal driving you wont feel the shifts up or down. SD steering wheel can be retrofitted for about 1k. If you are used to driving more modern cars it would be worth keeping an eye out for those.

2S or 4S. I have a 4S and love the wider hips but honestly in 6 months of ownership I have only ever noticed the 4WD a handful of times but admittedly don't drive it very hard. I have driven a 2S and think the 2S feels a little more nimble but my confidence was greater when I tested the 4S. A 4S commands a premium and nice ones are a bit thin on the ground and to some that premium isn't worth it and arguably the 2S is a 'purer' experience.

Other things. Sport seats - Look great but don't dismiss the standard seat many of which seem to be optioned with electrics and very comfortable. Auto dimming mirrors - sounds a bit naff but they are an optional extra and it's the only thing I regret not having on mine. PDLS - Dynamic head lights - I LOVE these! Seriously my first night drive and I was blown away at how good they are. Extended leather - subjective I guess but the extended leather completes the interior. PSE- Exhaust - This is the only place where I think the Gen 2 fails a little, the exhaust note. There are a couple of tricks to bypass the valve control at lower speeds but in a coupe the exhaust note is somewhat more subtle than a Gen 1 or 996. After market is an option as is the back box bypass option but it will mess with any OPC Warranty. All is not lost on the Gen 2 PSE or no PSE though as the engine noise is sublime Bose - nice to have as is the navigation module but both are dated and I rarely use either of mine although having the ipod connectivity is handy. TPM - Tyre pressure monitor - no biggie, I had it by chance and think it was an option. I find myself using it all the time but they wont be cheap when they need to be replaced - 6-8 years apparently. Rear wiper - Subjective but I like the look and have been thankful I have it. PASM - never tried a 911 without it but the ride in normal is far superior than my M Sport 4 series with adaptive M sport suspension even my Mrs noticed. In sport mode though it's firm and I like it, a lot!

OPC are not massively more expensive given the peace of mind of the 2 year warranty you get on every car. Also the history has to be complete for them to be able to sell it.

Finally, a Gen 2 C4S will cost about 20-25k less than a 991.1 C4S. I was after a 991 initially and dismissed the 997 during my search but when faced with the choice after a test drive I went with the 997 as it represents real value compared to the 991. The only problem with a Gen 2 C4S as I see it is that a 991.1 C2 can be had for similar money.

Good luck and enjoy the search.

 

[skendrick]

My 997.2 4S manual is up for sale at Northway Porsche if you're still looking.

What's your budget?

 

[MR]

Monketnutz, thanks for your perspective as a recent buyer.

I am having difficulty in deciding what mileage on a car I should be looking for. Obviously service history is my priority but I would also prefer a lower mileage car to.

How good will say a 55000 mile car with service history be compared to one with 40000 miles? I know it depends on how its been used but what's the general consensus?

Are the Porsche approved cars really worth the extra premium over the independents?

Skendrick, presume yours is the black 4s with 48000 miles?

Thanks.

 

[STiG911]

Eh Up.

OPC cars are usually worth the extra as in addition to them coming with a 2-year warranty, they will have had all potential issues resolved as well.

All the better Indys will have done the same due diligence, but most will offer 'only' a 1 year warranty although you can then extend that with them or Porsche directly if you so choose. If the 'same' car is say £1.5k cheaper at an Indy, go to the Indy and bank the difference or barter for an additional warranty year. OPCs will discount a bit too, or offer a reduced first service cost if you agree to go to them when it's next due so this is a good tactic to think about.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that 'Full Service History' means it's been looked after. I've viewed cars both for myself and friends which claim this only to turn out to be basket cases because anything not relevant to an MOT has been skipped. Rotting condensors, leaking roofs, budget tyres, shocking paintwork, shabby interiors, the list goes on. A good indicator is to check a car on the DVLAs MOT History page, as you can then (hopefully) see that if a car has had advisories, there will be corresponding receipts for remedial work in the history file. Repeat advisories for the same thing should make you run for the hills.

997s like all 911s are built to an extremely high standard, and shrug off high mileages with distain as long as they're maintained accordingly. My 997 was six years old when I bought it with just over 70k on the clock. It had wanted for nothing and felt (still feels) strong as an Ox. If properly looked after there's literally no way to tell a 40k car from one with 80k, inside or out.

Example: I recently changed my brakes and while I was under there I cleaned the entire inside of the wheel arches and there is not one spot of rust anywhere. These cars are built to last.