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Which brand of Oil do you use

ORIGINAL: sawood12

I've been back to school but still struggling to understand where i've gone wrong? The second number does relate to the viscosity of a warm engine does it not? and the first number relates to cold viscosity?

http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=115094

The viscosity of most liquds reduces as the temp increases not the other wsy round, most liquids get 'runnier' as they head up, which makes them easier to flow or for something to flow through them hence less viscous.

I believe the 0w-40 numbers relate to its propertied when cold and hot. i.e. when cold the oil eg Mobil 1 will have the porperties of a 0 weight oil and when hot will have the properties of a 40 weight oil. There is obviously much more to it than that, but the gereral point was that viscosity does not increase with temp.

Try it with golden syrip, drop a marble in a cold galss and then try the same in some heated too 100 deg. see which one reaches the btm first.

 
Fair enough, I do understand that normally viscosities decrease with increasing temperature howerver in this case with engine oils being such complicated substances and multigrade oils having different properties at different temp's, I thought it might be possible to concoct a substance that got thicker as the temps increase.
 
ORIGINAL: sawood12

Fair enough, I do understand that normally viscosities decrease with increasing temperature howerver in this case with engine oils being such complicated substances and multigrade oils having different properties at different temp's, I thought it might be possible to concoct a substance that got thicker as the temps increase.

In the words of a now departed icon

"You canny change the laws of physics"

[:D]
 
Time to point out a few facts here.

0w-40, 5w-40, 10w-40 and 15w-40 are all the same thickness (14cst) at 100degC.

Centistokes (cst) is the measure of a fluid's resistance to flow (viscosity). It is calculated in terms of the time required for a standard quantity of fluid at a certain temperature to flow through a standard orifice. The higher the value, the more viscous the fluid.

As viscosity varies with temperature, the value is meaningless unless accompanied by the temperature at which it is measured. In the case of oils, viscosity is generally reported in centistokes (cst) and usually measured at 40degC and 100degC.

So, all oils that end in 40 (sae 40) are around 14cst thickness at 100degC.

This applies to all oils that end in the same number, all oils that end in 50 (sae 50) are around 18.5cst at 100degC and all oils that end in 60 (sae 60) are around 24cst at 100degC.

Now, ALL oils are thicker when cold. Confused? It's true and here is a table to illustrate this.

SAE 40 (straight 40)

Temp degC.........................Viscosity (thickness)


0..........................................2579cst
20..........................................473cst
40..........................................135cst
60..........................................52.2cs t
100........................................ 14cst
120.........................................8.8cst

As you will see, there is penty of viscosity at 0degC, in fact many times more than at 100degC and this is the problem especially in cold weather, can the oil flow quick enough to protect vital engine parts at start up. Not really!

So, given that an sae 40 is 14cst at 100degC which is adequate viscosity to protect the engine, and much thicker when cold, how can a 0w oil be too thin?

Well, it can't is the truth.

The clever part (thanks to synthetics) is that thin base oils can be used so that start up viscosity (on say a 5w-40 at 0degC) is reduced to around 800cst and this obviously gives much better flow than a monograde sae 40 (2579cst as quoted above).

So, how does this happen, well as explained at the beginning, it's all about temperature, yes a thin base oil is still thicker when cold than at 100degC but the clever stuff (due to synthetics again) is that the chemists are able to build these oils out of molecules that do not thin to less than 14cst at 100degC! What are the parameters for our recommendations?

Well, we always talk about good cold start protection, by this we mean flow so a 5w will flow better than a 10w and so on. This is why we recommend 5w or 10w as the thickest you want to use except in exceptional circumstances. Flow is critical to protect the engine from wear!

We also talk about oil temps, mods and what the car is used for. This is related to the second number xw-(XX) as there may be issues with oil temperatures causing the oil to be too thin and therefore the possibility of metal to metal contact.

This is difficult to explain but, if for example your oil temp does not exceed 120degC at any time then a good "shear stable" sae 40 is perfectly capable of giving protection.

"Shear stability" is important here because if the oil shears it thins and that's not good!

However, if you are seeing temperatures in excess of 120degC due to mods and track use etc then there is a strong argument to using an sae 50 as it will have more viscosity at these excessive temperatures.

There are trade offs here. Thicker oils cause more friction and therefore more heat and they waste power and affect fuel consumption so it's always best to use the thinnest oil (i.e. second number) that you can get away with and still maintain oil pressure. Here are some figures in cst (centistokes) and temperatures for different viscosity oils.

The first numbers are sae numbers for straight 30,40,50 and 60. The second set of numbers is for various multigrades as they are obviously thinner when cold than straight oils due to lighter viscosity basestocks being used.

Monogrades

DegC...........0.....20......40......60......100......120

Sae 30....1600....315.....95.......39......11........7...
Sae 40....2579....473....135.......52......14.......9....
Sae 50....4592....771....205.......75......18.......11..
Sae 60....7865...1218...303.......105.....24.......14..

Multigrades

DegC...............0...............10............40..............100

0W/20............329............181...........46...............9..
5W/40............811............421...........92..............14..
10W/50..........1039...........539..........117.............18..
15W/50..........1376...........675..........130.............18..
20W/50..........2305..........1015..........148.............18..

These two graphs demonstrate the fact that a monograde is the same thickness at 100degC as a multigrade of the same sae number but the distinct benefits that a multigrade brings at lower temperatures. This is obviously benefits cold crank wear as the rate of flow of multigrades is much better at lower temps.Hope this helps to explain how multigrades work.

Cheers
Simon

PS. The best oil is not necessarily M1, there are better oils out there but M1 has the name and the profile and is widely available - It makes a difference!
 
Simon,
My confusion has come from the first number being lower than the second leading me to think that these clever fluids are thinner when cold which is counter-intuitive. Is this true i.e. for a 10w40 oil is the number 10 and the number 40 referring to the same unit of viscosity so therefore the oil gets thicker as it warms?
 
Scott,

I think your confusion is merely that the two numbers are not in fact related. The "w" number is cold crank viscosity and is related to low temperature performance. The second number (sae 40,50 etc) is the viscosity to which it thins at given temperatures, normally measured at 40degC and 100degC.

You're probably looking at a 10w as an sae 10 and it is not.

Cheers
Simon
 
Simon,

I apologise if this is a question that has been asked (and answered) before, but what precisely are the advantages of true synthetic oils over partially synthetics etc.? I assume that a 10w40 true synthetic is different in its properties to a partially synthetic 10w40 (if such a thing is available). i.e. (a) is it just that true synthetics are the only way to deliver low viscosity oils at low temperature, or (b) is it that synthetics last better, or (c) is it that the polar ester molecules 'cling' to the parts better when cold thus giving better lubrication other than by flowing better when cold?
Cheers,

Graham
 
The basic benefits are as follows:

Extended oil drain periods
Better wear protection and therefore extended engine life
Most synthetics give better MPG

They flow better when cold and are more thermally stable when hot
Esters are surface-active meaning a thin layer of oil on the surfaces at all times

If you want to know the reasons why then please read on but, warning - Long Post!

Stable Basestocks

Synthetic oils are designed from pure, uniform synthetic basestocks, they contain no contaminants or unstable molecules which are prone to thermal and oxidative break down.
Because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic lubricants operate with less internal and external friction than petroleum oils which have a non-uniform molecular structure.
The result is better heat control, and less heat means less stress to the lubricant.

Higher Percentage of Basestock
Synthetic oils contain a higher percentage of lubricant basestock than petroleum oils do.
This is because multi-viscosity oils need a great deal of pour point depressant and viscosity improvers to operate as a multigrade.
The basestocks actually do most of the lubricating. More basestocks mean a longer oil life.

Additives Used Up More Slowly
Petroleum basestocks are much more prone to oxidation than synthetic oils. Oxidation inhibitors are needed in greater quantities in petroleum oils as they are used up more quickly.
Synthetic oils do oxidize, but at a much slower rate therefore, oxidation inhibiting additives are used up more slowly.

Synthetic oils provide for better ring seal than petroleum oils do. This minimizes blow-by and reduces contamination by combustion by-products. As a result, corrosion inhibiting additives have less work to do and will last much longer in a synthetic oil.

Excellent Heat Tolerance
Synthetics are simply more tolerant to extreme heat than petroleum oils are. When heat builds up within an engine, petroleum oils quickly begin to burn off. They are more volatile. The lighter molecules within petroleum oils turn to gas and what's left are the large molecules that are harder to pump.
Synthetics have far more resistance as they are more thermally stable to begin with and can take higher temperatures for longer periods without losing viscosity.



Heat Reduction
One of the major factors affecting engine life is component wear and/or failure, which is often the result of high temperature operation. The uniformly smooth molecular structure of synthetic oils gives them a much lower coefficient friction (they slip more easily over one another causing less friction) than petroleum oils.
Less friction means less heat and heat is a major contributor to engine component wear and failure, synthetic oils significantly reduce these two detrimental effects.
Since each molecule in a synthetic oil is of uniform size, each is equally likely to touch a component surface at any given time, thus moving a certain amount of heat into the oil stream and away from the component. This makes synthetic oils far superior heat transfer agents than conventional petroleum oils.

Greater Film Strength
Petroleum motor oils have very low film strength in comparison to synthetics. The film strength of a lubricant refers to it's ability to maintain a film of lubricant between two objects when extreme pressure and heat are applied.
Synthetic oils will typically have a film strength of 5 to 10 times higher than petroleum oils of comparable viscosity.
Even though heavier weight oils typically have higher film strength than lighter weight oils, an sae 30 or 40 synthetic will typically have a higher film strength than an sae 50 or sae 60 petroleum oil.

A lighter grade synthetic can still maintain proper lubricity and reduce the chance of metal to metal contact. This means that you can use oils that provide far better fuel efficiency and cold weather protection without sacrificing engine protection under high temperature, high load conditions. Obviously, this is a big plus, because you can greatly reduce both cold temperature start-up wear and high temperature/high load engine wear using a low viscosity oil.

Engine Deposit Reduction
Petroleum oils tend to leave sludge, varnish and deposits behind after thermal and oxidative break down. They're better than they used to be, but it still occurs.
Deposit build-up leads to a significant reduction in engine performance and engine life as well as increasing the chance of costly repairs.
Synthetic oils have far superior thermal and oxidative stability and they leave engines virtually varnish, deposit and sludge-free.

Better Cold Temperature Fluidity
Synthetic oils do not contain the paraffins or other waxes which dramatically thicken petroleum oils during cold weather. As a result, they tend to flow much better during cold temperature starts and begin lubricating an engine almost immediately. This leads to significant engine wear reduction, and, therefore, longer engine life.

Improved Fuel Economy
Because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic oils are tremendous friction reducers. Less friction leads to increased fuel economy and improved engine performance.
This means that more energy released from the combustion process can be transferred directly to the wheels due to the lower friction. Acceleration is more responsive and more powerful, using less fuel in the process.

In a petroleum oil, lighter molecules tend to boil off easily, leaving behind much heavier molecules which are difficult to pump. The engine loses more energy pumping these heavy molecules than if it were pumping lighter ones.
Since synthetic oils have more uniform molecules, fewer of these molecules tend to boil off and when they do, the molecules which are left are of the same size and pumpability is not affected.

Sorry it's long-winded but you asked.

Yes, synthetics are better and in many ways, they are basically better by design as they are created by chemists in laboratories for a specific purpose.

Cheers
Simon
 

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