Peter Empson
PCGB Member
I seem to remember my garage used just one bottle (1 litre) when we changed over. Personally I didn't really get on with the EBC's either, but I'd definately try the fluid first to see if that helps.
Which PF pads for S2?
- Thread starter Neil Haughey
- Start date
edh
New member
Scott
I can't think that the ATE would be giving you any problems in your application - any reasonable fluid should be fine for road (and occasional track) use.
What do you mean by soft? - how worn are your pads?
My experience of Porsche brakes is that they are very progressive, not the on/off switch of many modern cars, and the initial pedal travel does increase as the pads wear. I found EBC Reds less than inspiring, with less initial bite, and less feel than either OE, Pagid FR or Mintex 1155 pads.
My PF97 pads (and fresh RBF 600 - high boiling point DOT4 fluid) are going on later this month - maybe you 'd like to try my brakes out when these are done? (and also try them before with some well worn 1155's?)
If you're still concerned, the first point of call must be brake bleeding - and you've got plenty of spare fluid [
]
Another thing may be the brake master cylinder - can you push the pedal to the floor? If you have poor sealing in the m/c you should be able to gradually depress the pedal all the way down. (use of power bleeders can also deform the seals - had this in one of my 924's that was very soft after a fluid change & recovered over the next 2 days)
I can't think that the ATE would be giving you any problems in your application - any reasonable fluid should be fine for road (and occasional track) use.
What do you mean by soft? - how worn are your pads?
My experience of Porsche brakes is that they are very progressive, not the on/off switch of many modern cars, and the initial pedal travel does increase as the pads wear. I found EBC Reds less than inspiring, with less initial bite, and less feel than either OE, Pagid FR or Mintex 1155 pads.
My PF97 pads (and fresh RBF 600 - high boiling point DOT4 fluid) are going on later this month - maybe you 'd like to try my brakes out when these are done? (and also try them before with some well worn 1155's?)
If you're still concerned, the first point of call must be brake bleeding - and you've got plenty of spare fluid [
] Another thing may be the brake master cylinder - can you push the pedal to the floor? If you have poor sealing in the m/c you should be able to gradually depress the pedal all the way down. (use of power bleeders can also deform the seals - had this in one of my 924's that was very soft after a fluid change & recovered over the next 2 days)
Peter Empson
PCGB Member
I know this question wasn't aimed at me, but I found the pedal rather spongy with the ATE, I do like a firm pedal and this just didn't inspire confidence. This was just on the road at all speeds (for reference this was with braided hoses and new Porterfields). On the track I boiled the fluid very easily, spoiling my fun and in some ways wasting a lot of the cost of the day, a fluid change in comparison was cheap, I wish I'd thought of it earlier. All I need now is wider front tyres to really exploit the braking potential available [
]
appletonn
New member
Peter,
now you tell me after I've bought the fluid!![&o] I thought ATE Super Blue was the Mutts whatsits and more than up to a few trackday laps?
What do you use instead of it?
I am fitting Goodridge hoses, Porterfield pads, new disks and I had hoped that this little lot plus the ATE would give me the firm pedal that I prefer....
Thanks
Nick
now you tell me after I've bought the fluid!![&o] I thought ATE Super Blue was the Mutts whatsits and more than up to a few trackday laps?
What do you use instead of it?
I am fitting Goodridge hoses, Porterfield pads, new disks and I had hoped that this little lot plus the ATE would give me the firm pedal that I prefer....
Thanks
Nick
Peter Empson
PCGB Member
Sorry Nick [
] I'd give it a go on the road and see what you think first, I'm sure many are happy with the stuff, it just didn't suit me or my car.I used to use Castrol Response without any problems, but now use SRF as it it seems superior (I was warned originally that SRF needs changing very regularly as it's more hygroscopic but I've not found this to be the case so far).
edh
New member
ORIGINAL: Peter Empson
I know this question wasn't aimed at me, but I found the pedal rather spongy with the ATE, I do like a firm pedal and this just didn't inspire confidence. This was just on the road at all speeds (for reference this was with braided hoses and new Porterfields). On the track I boiled the fluid very easily, spoiling my fun and in some ways wasting a lot of the cost of the day, a fluid change in comparison was cheap, I wish I'd thought of it earlier. All I need now is wider front tyres to really exploit the braking potential available [
Peter - I'm puzzled - you can't compress a liquid, so if the pedal was spongy from the off, it can't have been the fluid. Isn't it much more likely that there was some air in the system?
Peter Empson
PCGB Member
Don't think so Ed, it was bled loads of times (and even changed completely too). Doing nothing else but swapping the fluid solved it completely.
sawood12
New member
I think the symptoms I think i'm getting are what Peter is describing. The feel is progressive and I can't get the pedal anywhere near the floor no matter how hard I push so I don't think there is an issue with bleeding.
When I first bought the car I had stock pads and well worn stock discs. I don't recall there being an issue with this arrangement though I only had it for about 800 miles or so.
Once the discs had had it I replaced the disks with Zimmerman x-drilled and EBC red stuff ceramic. This was a combination I never got on with for road and trackdays. Spongy brake pedal feel, no cold bite, no real feel of security when braking.
I ditched this setup for the Big Blacks, 964 discs and EBC yellows. During this installation I also upgraded to Goodrich SS hoses and ATE super blue. This was much more improved setup, night and day compared to my EBC Reds/Zimmerman. However the pedal still doesn't feel rock hard. I have been putting it down to the EBC pads.
I had been considering ditching the EBC yellows for stock pads as Andrew Sweatenahm uses stock pads with his BB's and he seems to have no issues on track whatsoever with them.
When I first bought the car I had stock pads and well worn stock discs. I don't recall there being an issue with this arrangement though I only had it for about 800 miles or so.
Once the discs had had it I replaced the disks with Zimmerman x-drilled and EBC red stuff ceramic. This was a combination I never got on with for road and trackdays. Spongy brake pedal feel, no cold bite, no real feel of security when braking.
I ditched this setup for the Big Blacks, 964 discs and EBC yellows. During this installation I also upgraded to Goodrich SS hoses and ATE super blue. This was much more improved setup, night and day compared to my EBC Reds/Zimmerman. However the pedal still doesn't feel rock hard. I have been putting it down to the EBC pads.
I had been considering ditching the EBC yellows for stock pads as Andrew Sweatenahm uses stock pads with his BB's and he seems to have no issues on track whatsoever with them.
Neil Haughey
New member
Funny, I have had the opposite experience with ATE blue. However the brake systems in our cars always has a small amount of slack that annoys me. Maybe the LHD cars that have the servo on the same side of the car don't suffer from this problem.
I have also heard it said a few times that NA 944's have a better feel because supposedly the calipers are stiffer then the multi piece brembo's we have.
Lastly I have always felt that perhaps the ABS reduces pedal feel. I remember my mini from years ago had no servo or ABS and the feel was incredible.
I have also heard it said a few times that NA 944's have a better feel because supposedly the calipers are stiffer then the multi piece brembo's we have.
Lastly I have always felt that perhaps the ABS reduces pedal feel. I remember my mini from years ago had no servo or ABS and the feel was incredible.
sawood12
New member
I wonder if the linkage between the brake pedal and the servo on our RHD cars can wear? The LHD has no such linkage and the brake pedal connects directly to the servo but there is a bar and a linkage on our RHD cars. This very well may be the slack you are referring to. I must admit i've not noticed any slack as such and am very happy with my braking performance but think there is a bit of a spongy feel. Other than that the car pulls up extremely well.
Peter Empson
PCGB Member
That was certainly my experience, I think they are rather underrated (as long as you use good fluid and pads). The larger calipers I now have don't have quite the same precise feel to them, although I'd never describe them as bad.
Hmm, so what conclusion can we glean from all this? Are we possibly prone to some sponginess due to the rhd setup? Is it possible for such a variance in high quality brake fluids? I too have never absolutely loved the feel of my car's brakes and while in general it is pretty good (certainly on the road), I have had the pedal go to the floor on a couple of attention getting occasions and have updated as I go. Went from the standard Mo30 S4's with EBC Yellows, to s/s braideds, Dot 5 fluid Castrol SFR, 968cs underbody air deflectors, new master cylinder, 5/33 bias, and finally BR's on the front. Oh, and of course changed from EBC Yellows to the PFC 01's f and 97's r. Much improved over EBC's.The last time I went to the track in Oct (about a week after seeing some of you guys at the Ace Cafe), I had a rather early example of brake fade after only a few laps. Quite alarming really. That was also the last time I drove the car due to it's last engine failure so the brakes have taken a back seat somewhat. Anyway I shall have them bled, change fluid and try the Motul 600, change the deflectors to direct ducted rotors and cross fingers as this latest motor should have about 500hp at the crank. Block will be here in a few days and rebuilt by late Jan. I shall report on the brakes.
appletonn
New member
Well, having taken my car out today to bed in the new disks and Porterfields (thanks for the heads up Peter!), all I can say is that the brakes have been transformed and that, whilst there is maybe half an inch of dead travel, after that the pedal is solid with lovely progressive feel underfoot and phenominal stopping power - as the roads were slightly damp, my bedding-in stops kept triggering the ABS, but it still felt superb.
Looking forward to trying them out in anger on dry roads and on track.
Interesting to compare with my daily driver 325i, whose brakes have a more immediate initial bite when you touch the pedal but which have far less 'depth' to their performance once you start to lean on them and far softer pedal with more travel when braking from speed.
Got my new Ultrac Sessantas on the front now, but rear going on at the weekend as those Dunlop Direzza t/day tyres are lethal in the cold/damp once the boost comes in...[]
Cheers
Nick
Looking forward to trying them out in anger on dry roads and on track.
Interesting to compare with my daily driver 325i, whose brakes have a more immediate initial bite when you touch the pedal but which have far less 'depth' to their performance once you start to lean on them and far softer pedal with more travel when braking from speed.
Got my new Ultrac Sessantas on the front now, but rear going on at the weekend as those Dunlop Direzza t/day tyres are lethal in the cold/damp once the boost comes in...[
]Cheers
Nick
sawood12
New member
Nick,
Which Portafields did you go for?
Pat,
Crickey, with 500bhp sounds like you're going to need PCCB! By your own analysis justifying the need for the GT3mk2 brakes (i.e. similar weights and similar BHP) it seems even the steel GT3mk2 brake setup will be inadequte with 500bhp on tap. I've often wondered though - what about the Cayenne brakes. They are larger 6 potters than the GT3 ones, and given the Cayenne weights about as much as Australia and they are pretty nippy too they should be man enough for the job - though you'll probably need some bling 'pimp my ride' 20" rims. You'll be the only person who will look like a drug dealer in their 944.
Which Portafields did you go for?
Pat,
Crickey, with 500bhp sounds like you're going to need PCCB! By your own analysis justifying the need for the GT3mk2 brakes (i.e. similar weights and similar BHP) it seems even the steel GT3mk2 brake setup will be inadequte with 500bhp on tap. I've often wondered though - what about the Cayenne brakes. They are larger 6 potters than the GT3 ones, and given the Cayenne weights about as much as Australia and they are pretty nippy too they should be man enough for the job - though you'll probably need some bling 'pimp my ride' 20" rims. You'll be the only person who will look like a drug dealer in their 944.
appletonn
New member
I think they do, according to their website (R4, R4S & R41), but John Holland @ Unit 11 recommended these particular ones as he has used them on 911s extensively in the past.
Will see if I can find the model number.
Only downside, is that they do not have wear sensors, so had to solder connectors up to avoid warning light being constantly on!
Cheers
Will see if I can find the model number.
Only downside, is that they do not have wear sensors, so had to solder connectors up to avoid warning light being constantly on!
Cheers
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