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Why's everyone selling their 993's?

been watching the price of 993's (lhd in particular as i drive lhd) over the last year and a half - really do think the prices are rising - perhaps the same is happening with lhd's what happened to the old bmw m3's - germany disposed of them all cheaply to then realise if they wanted a good example they had to look back to the Uk to buy them back?
 
The 993 has a strong fan base. I spouted on about the 993 and 996 price movements we will most likely see in a previous post.

I agree with all your comments so far.... the 996 (especially the 3.4) is destined to be a nice income generator for the motor trade, they have, and will change ownership frequently. Just think how many variants of the 996 there are, and the sheer numbers....

Also it does not have the appeal to the more traditional 911 fan.. it is a car for footballers and reality TV show winners, which is fantastic, because these nouveau riche morons would not want to be seen in a car that requires an MOT certificate, and therefore would never dream of driving a 993.

I have had mine for some 6 years, and i have no plans to sell it. None of you should either!
 

ORIGINAL: jp albin

I have had mine for some 6 years, and i have no plans to sell it. None of you should either!

Yeah - and the earth's flat, and the moon is made of cheese......it's called progress!
 
Yeah - and the earth's flat, and the moon is made of cheese......it's called progress!

My point is that for me, I am quite happy to run my 993 till it's on its last set of tyres. So maybe my comment, that all 993 owners to hang on to them, is stupid. Clearly, you have a 997S arriving, and good luck to you.

I acknowledge that the 996 and 997 are of course much better cars than any 993. As you quite rightly say, thats progress. I simply love the 993. That's why i take time to post messages on this forum.

My decision to hang on to mine is aesthetic, not financial, i can afford a 997S.

Have fun.


 
The 993 is one of those cars that you could quite easily sell.....but then you would certainly regret it, I'm one of those sad people that drive with windows down in tunnels so that I can listen to engine sound track, I have never invested expensive ICE because IMO nothing sound sweeter than a 993 even when I'm having a bad day[8D]. I have never looked at the 996 with envy.....well maybe the Turbo and GT3[;)]

AG
 
I really, really hope they are coming down in price[:D] I've just sold my 964 and on the look out for one[8|]


Ant.
 
996 and 997 are of course much better cars than any 993.

I wouldn't go that far. 993 GT2 is pretty awesome.

Anyway, quicker, easier to driveand with more gadgets, doesn't mean better. Styling, sound and character count for a lot.
In any case it is about having fun, and I think most of them score similarly.
Whilst they have different characteristics, you can't easily say that one is more fun that another, just different.

It all depends what you are looking for.
You don't need to justify your position in terms of money (or think that other people are implying something), we are supposed to like the cars for what they are, not engage in some sort of financial one-upmanship.
If you can find a car that meets your needs and continues to meet your needs, why change? If can resist the car company's temptations, it's much more sensible to keep hold of it.

BTW I am not a "footballer or reality TV show winner", or a lottery winner, and I intend to keep mine for quite some time, so that I can make the same comments to 997 owners when the 998 comes out.
I've not been called a "nouveau riche moron" before, but it's not that bad in terms of insults I guess - could be worse.
 
ORIGINAL: jp albin

...the 996... it is a car for footballers and reality TV show winners, which is fantastic, because these nouveau riche morons would not want to be seen in a car that requires an MOT certificate, and therefore would never dream of driving a 993.

Quite frankly, I find this comment rather inflamatory, especially by a "moderator" of this forum. My 996 (complete with MOT) is a lot less valuable than many 993's, and I most definitely don't fall into any of these catagories. I AM a traditional Porsche fan, and it DOES have the appeal. Had the comment been littered with smileys I may not have given it a second thought, but as it was not, then the writer may have been serious.

As an ex-993 owner (I cannot yet afford the luxury of having a Porsche as a plaything) I am well aware of the virtues of this model, but as an everyday drive the 996 has it beaten in every respect. It was probably the Boxster and 996 that saved Porsche from extinction, and there is a good reason for that. These models brought the 911 into the modern era, taking the technical advances forward, rather than relying on heritage. Had it not been for the Boxter and 996, you would probably be struggling to find original parts to keep 993's on the road.

(I've been feeling guilty about my rather knee-jerk response since I made the post - Sorry, JP)
 
Richard,

It is a fact that a large number of 996 drivers are not interested or even care about the camaradery of owning a Porche and may not be even ble to tell the difference between a 924, 944 and a 968!

A point that bears this out is that today have just returned from Slaley Hall from a regional meeting and three of mu colleagues own 996s. Only one of them when he saw my 993 actually knew what it was and the other two kept on saying they owned 911s!

Interestingly one of the partners had test driven a 997 and found it to demanding and is now contemplating a 996 because in his words it is a lot easier to drive and has more creature comforts. He thought the 993 was a cracking looking car but felt that he could not live with it.

There is a lot of talk about the 993 not being a comforrtable car which I find hard to understand. Having played 18 holes of golf I then jumped in the car and drove 160 miles home with no problems.

In the end it comes down to personal choice and I find the 996 too bland and not enough fun. Each to his own.
 
I remember the 80's and 90's. I'm not so sure all the people that bought 964's, 993's, 924's, 944's, 968's and 928's new were all discerning owners interested in camaradery.
At any time, with any model, there is a proportion who buy for image and to impress others, and those who buy for themselves knowing what they are buying.

As has been pointed out before, those who buy and then move on are supplying the 2nd hand cars for others to acquire.
If everyone bought new and kept it, there would be no used market and Porsche ownership would be more limited to thiose with high disposable income. Similarly if everyone was wise and bought when the cars had depreciated a bit, Porsche would be out of business since they wouldn't sell b*gger all.
It takes all sorts. How, why, when and where people choose to spend their money is their business.
Whether they choose to mix with other owners is their choice. Being deliberately antoagonistic in either direction does no-one any favours.
You don't need to know every model Porsche have made to be a part of things. Everyone has to start somewhere, whether you can tell a 956 from a 962, or 914 from a 914/6, or a 904 from a 908, or a 964 from a 964RS, who cares. Enthusiasm for the marque is what matters, and your starting point is what encourages you to learn about the others.

You should take the time to expain to others where the current cars have come from.
 

ORIGINAL: Stuart Martin

I remember the 80's and 90's. I'm not so sure all the people that bought 964's, 993's, 924's, 944's, 968's and 928's new were all discerning owners interested in camaradery.
At any time, with any model, there is a proportion who buy for image and to impress others, and those who buy for themselves knowing what they are buying.

As has been pointed out before, those who buy and then move on are supplying the 2nd hand cars for others to acquire.
If everyone bought new and kept it, there would be no used market and Porsche ownership would be more limited to thiose with high disposable income. Similarly if everyone was wise and bought when the cars had depreciated a bit, Porsche would be out of business since they wouldn't sell b*gger all.
It takes all sorts. How, why, when and where people choose to spend their money is their business.
Whether they choose to mix with other owners is their choice. Being deliberately antoagonistic in either direction does no-one any favours.
You don't need to know every model Porsche have made to be a part of things. Everyone has to start somewhere, whether you can tell a 956 from a 962, or 914 from a 914/6, or a 904 from a 908, or a 964 from a 964RS, who cares. Enthusiasm for the marque is what matters, and your starting point is what encourages you to learn about the others.

You should take the time to expain to others where the current cars have come from.

Stuart - what a spot on post. Since I bought my pride and joy ( 944 S2 ) the smile that owning a Porsche brings has never left, in the year or so of ownership I am learning and appreciating other models and my knowledge of the overall range increases daily due to a genuine interest in the marque. Im quite sure and have witnessed snobery but I really dont give a dam - my car is everything I currently want in a car and having waited what seems like ages to own a Porsche - sniping and the old ' he's not got a 911 ' ' van engine ' , 993/996 etc etc just makes me laugh [:D] - if we all had and loved the same car just how boring would life be.


 






Yeah - and the earth's flat, and the moon is made of cheese......it's called progress!

Tell that to the city planners when they built Maisonettes out of concerete in the 60's because that was progress! Where are they now ?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing to have and people who buy the "must have " Porsche good luck to them, they are the ones who will be complaining on the sites along the lines of " I have just spent 70k on a car and its in the garage AGAIN!" ( check out the debate on the 996 forum on RMS seals). If that is progress you can keep it. I am happy to keep my 964 which will be a future classic as it is the last model which has the original bug eye lights. The 993 group will be happy to keep there cars because it was the last of the air cooled lineage.
What claim to fame will the 996 have?

Regards,

Neil Eldred
 
What claim to fame will the 996 have?

It will be set apart by the fried egg headlights. A radical departure into the realms of futuristic design.
It will also be remembered for the success of the GT3R/RS/RSR.

It will be the car that people point to as having started the water cooled era of flat engines (although water cylinder jackets and heads were used in the racing cars in the 70's), that brought interior design into the 90's, that introduced fibre optic buses, PSM, sat nav, heating/cooling systems that befit a car of that price, that introduced state of the art production proceses.

The GT3 (mk1, mk2 and RS) road cars will realitively sought after for their track abilities.
The TT will be remembered as being the best car of it's type, significantly moving the game on. In modified form it also holds the lap record at the Nurburgring (if you ignore the turbo Radical), plus it can be tweaked to give ridiculous amounts of torque and power.
The C4S will be noted as the model that proved to the marketing people that curvy is what sells.

In 30-40 years I expect the 996 (plus 986 and 955) will have pride of place in the museum as having been the cars that kept the company alive, that generated the cash to invest in technology and grow, that funded the cars that came subsequently and (hopefully) funded the racing programmes that kept the brand at the top of the pile, fending off threats from Aston, etc.
With 160k+ sales and still rising, you can't say it has not been a success.

You also need to remember that 964's and 993's could not be built today. They do not comply will all the current legal requirements. So even if you don't like the 996, the model had to change anyway.
The alternative was to kill the 911 and start with something new, like a sensible front engined car with a V8 for the US sales, perhaps in coupe form, with a smooth shape and enhanced aerodynamics. But we know where that led...
 
Fried egg headlights. Went back to 993 style with the 997 so they must have been unpopular.
ANY 911 model that has the RS tag will always be desirable so its not the exclusive right of the 996. But I do agree with you that in order to fund future progammes the company has to bend to the rules that dictate a desirable car ( ie fibre optics, PSM ect). Installing these in a car of high value keeps the customers happy. If they don't, they will go to other prestige manufacturers who do provide such luxuries, as all they want to say is " I have got the latest Porsche you know". You get them amongst the biker fraternity we call them "All the gear, no idea!" ( you should see the amount of people that have Suzuki GSXR 1000's with matching leathers and only use 1/3 of the tyre) Don't get me started about Ducati because they are even worse[:mad:]
These people have a larger disposable income than I but I bet that when they get out of there car with all the comforts of a 'soft' car all that they have done is get to the destination and not feel like they have 'driven'. I sat in the 997 that was on display at Cornbury House and it is a very nice and comfortable car, when I got back into my 964 it felt sparten and not as nice but when I started her up I got the "oh yes were going to have a fun drive home" feeling which has been taken away in the modern versions and i am afraid that money cant buy that. All that has happened is that Porsche didnt get bought by a larger car company because they made a car that appealed to a wider audience, 160k sales like you say is nothing to be sniffed at, I just feel that the lions teeth have been taken out but at least they made great cars in the past which we will be eternally grateful for .

Regards,

Neil Eldred
 
I thought that one of the design briefs was that it was to have the same silouette as a 911, hence it being a 911[;)].

Regards,

Neil Eldred
 
Just joined the club - Bloody hell you guys with the 993 have some issues.

The price on normal 993 will fall like any car, the 996 (most popular 911 to date in numbers sold) will fall then stable out like it always does when a new 911 comes out.

Good cars with low milage will always sell for good money and us "nouveau riche morons" will go and buy the latest thing - A good 993 [:D]

Relax take a pill
 
Good job you're not a moderator then Maurice [;)]
I personally don't mind this sort of banter as long as it does'nt get out of hand ... at least we then get a feel for the personality behind the username - and its got to be better this way than endorsing a policy of deleting an interesting thread in its infancy if it runs the risk of offending someone. Would be a tad boring if you had to leave your opinions at home before signing-in.

I did used to be the type to gather 'round and watch in the playground though [:D]
 

As long as no-one gets personal, there's no harm in expressing different opinions.
It's not much of a debate/discussion if everyone just agrees.

"Fried egg headlights" was partly a joke. However, the single most obvious external difference when confronted by a car park full of models in the future will be the headlights.
It will also distinguish the pre/post facelift versions. The other difference will be the absence of the reflector stretching between the rear lights (although the 996 C4S has it).

As for "futuristic design" it was supposed to be funny.
Personally I think the market was getting used to the change in design and that the older look was no longer necessary - indeed the 997 has come in for quite a lot of criticism in the looks deopartment for not moving the game on.
It seems waiting lists are not that long for it either, so whether the facelift will prove successful, we'll see.
The looks have to be appealing and whether it will get new people in through the door (rather than repeat custom) is not clear.
Personally I think it was a mistake to go backwards, the shape should have evolved further.

The styling of the 996 was handled under styling director Haarm Lagaay, who also oversaw the 997 (before he retired).
I haven't found the name for who styled the 993.

Form is supposed to follow function, that is one of the requirements. I think that is not too contronversial.

The drag coefficient for the 993 was less than the 964, the 996 is less than the 993, the 997 less than the 996.
The same engineering requirements are at work here.
I accept that the silhouette of the 996 was not identical to the 993, but then the 993 was not the same as the 964.
But the design requirement that it should be obviously a 911 does apply.


I thought I would include some details on the 996 below. Not to knock the 993, but just to provide some information.


If you are interested the design requirements for the 996 development team were:

- Cmopared with the previous models, enhance comfort and sportivity
- Retain the 911's typical character
- Increase the interior space while retaining the characteristic shape
- Flat-6 engine to be wated-cooled; retain is typical sound (which comes mostly from the induction system and the cam chains), be more powerful and use less fuel
- High active and passive safety, thank to superior handling, brakes and high performance, stiff body structure, high side intrusion protection and standard airbags
- Improved lightweight suspension systems, retaining the strut and lower wishbone (pseudo McPherson) system at the font and multi-link system at the rear
- Six speed, cable operated manual gearbox and five speed Tiptronic automatic
- Significant weight reduction compared to the previous model
- Reduced service costs
- Worldwide environmental legislation must be met
- Extensive recycling possibilities
- Modular construction and extensive component sharing with the Boxster for econimical production and prevention of errors in the assembly process
- Pricing to a level similar to the forerunner's, thanks to optimised production costs
- Development and production quality to the highest level

Compared to a 993, the 996 is 18.5 cm longer, 3 cm wider and the wheelbase is 7.8 cm longer.
The front was made more rounded to make parking easier.
The rear overhang is almost the same, so the front overhang is about 10cm longer for better frontal impact safety (to conform with legal requirements).
996 C2 is 45% stiffer in torsion and 50% stiffer in flexion than the 993. The C4 body (on which the GT3/2 and TT are based) is 49 and 82% and this was further improved in '02 models.
The weight of the C2 is 50kg less at 1320 rather than 1370kg.

(Although made from steel, the 996 is lighter than the all aluminium 360 Modena, this is through the use of tailored blanks and modern build technology sucj as laser welding.)
(The 993 was lighter than all its competitors except the Honda NSX, which was the same but used aluminium.)

The rear spoiler reduces drag by 5% and reduces lift on the rear axle by 86%, but this is similar to the 993.
The flush side panels, optimised underbody, more inclined windscreen, more sloping front and deletion of the rain gutters all contribute to lower Cd of 0.3 and an overall lower total drag.
(FYI - before the 964 came out, the drag Cd had risen to 0.42, the 964 got this down to 0.32 mostly by giving it a smooth underbody, the 993 raised it to 0.33)
The reduced slope of the bonnet on the 993 increased the capacity of the front locker by 30%.
The 993 had the windscreen recess reduced by 3mm and the side windows recess reduced by 7mm, which was taken further on the 996 by having frameless doors.

The distance from the bottom of the front bulkhead to the bottom of the rear seat was increased by 112mm, which allows the seat to move 40mm further back and give more room in the back.
Elbow room was increased by 22mm and shoulder room by 63 mm.

The front suspension, although of the same type, was a new design, while the rear was an evolution.
Front and rear track was increased by 5 and 6 cm.

Elimination of the air cooling fan made the engine 120mm lower, which allows for the inclusion of a shelf behind the rear seats.

The most important reason for abandoning air-cooling was that experiments made with 4 valves per cylinder had indicated that adequate cooling of the cylinder heads and valve seats was impossible to achieve.
Four valves per cylinder was essential though to achive a high specific power output, while also meeting emmissions requirements.
Liquid cooling also does away with the fan which is a major source of noise, and makes heating a lot more simple.
However, it does add weight. FYI - on the 3.4 the water pump circulates 14,000 litres of coolant per hour, or the whole contents every 5.75 secs.
70% goes through the heads, 20% through the block and 10% through the oil/water intercooler.
(Better cooling allows the turbo to have higher compression, 9.4:1 rather than 8:1, which results in 22% lower fuel consumption).
BTW - 80% of the components are different betweem the 3.4 and the 3.6 C2 engines.

In order to have PSM, you have to have drive-by-wire throttle control, so not physical cable.


For the gearbox on the 996, the GT3/2 and TT use a development of the G50/53 box from the 993 GT2.
The GT3 has G96/50, the TT G96/51 with output shaft for the front wheels, the GT2 G96/88 with its own oil cooler,pump and oil jets for the gears. All gear ratios bar 2nd can be changed.

For all 996 they are actuated by Bowden cables rather than rods, which reduced noise in the cabin.

For the C2/4 and new box G96/00 and G96/30 were developed. The targets were:
- Reduce the length (it is 43mm shorter)
- Reduce the weight (it has a higher torque rating but is 2.5kg lighter)
- Improve the efficiency
- Lower the shifting forces
- Oil change intervals of 100,000 miles


The 996 rack and pinion is now located ahead of the front axle, rather than behind it.

Brake discs were increased to 318 from 302mm, the rears unchanged at 299. Disc thickness was unchanged at 28 and 24mm front/rear.


It wouldn't be complete without some figures:

964 Carrera 2 Coupe (1989) Auto, Motor & Sport
0-100 kph (62.5 mph) - 5.5
0-160 kph (99.5 mph) - 12.9
0-200 kph (124 mph) - 21.3
1km from standing - 25.0
Max speed - 164

993 Carrera 2 Coupe (1993) Auto, Motor & Sport
0-100 kph (62.5 mph) - 5.2
0-160 kph (99.5 mph) - 12.4
0-200 kph (124 mph) - 21.1
1km from standing - 24.7
Max speed - 166

996 Carrera 2 Coupe 3.4 (1997) Auto, Motor & Sport
0-100 kph (62.5 mph) - 4.9
0-160 kph (99.5 mph) - 11.0
0-200 kph (124 mph) - 17.9
1km from standing - 23.9
Max speed - 174

996 Carrera 2 Coupe 3.6 (2002) Auto, Motor & Sport
0-100 kph (62.5 mph) - 4.7
0-160 kph (99.5 mph) - 9.9
0-200 kph (124 mph) - 15.7
1km from standing - 23.2
Max speed - 177
(Personally, I find these a little hard to believe, since they are quicker than the times they got for the GT3, although several magaizines got 10 or just under for 0-60).


If you are interested the turbo and GT2 have not made the same progress.

Turbo 3.6 964 (1993) Auto, Motor & Sport
0-100 kph (62.5 mph) - 4.6
0-160 kph (99.5 mph) - 9.5
0-200 kph (124 mph) - 15.0
1km from standing - 22.5
Max speed - 179.5

Turbo 3.6 993 (1995) Auto, Motor & Sport
0-100 kph (62.5 mph) - 4.3
0-160 kph (99.5 mph) - 9.5
0-200 kph (124 mph) - 15.1
1km from standing - 22.4
Max speed - 181

Turbo 3.6 996 (1995) Auto, Motor & Sport
0-100 kph (62.5 mph) - 4.3
0-160 kph (99.5 mph) - 9.5
0-200 kph (124 mph) - 15.0
1km from standing - 22.6
Max speed - 191


993 GT2 road version (1995) Auto, Motor & Sport
0-100 kph (62.5 mph) - 4.0
0-160 kph (99.5 mph) - 8.4
0-200 kph (124 mph) - 13.3
1km from standing - N/A
Max speed - 184

996 GT2 (2001) Auto, Motor & Sport
0-100 kph (62.5 mph) - 4.0
0-160 kph (99.5 mph) - 8.5
0-200 kph (124 mph) - 13.1
1km from standing - 21.8
Max speed - 196


Just for completeness
996 TT with X50 (from Autocar)
0-100 kph (62.5 mph) - 3.9
0-160 kph (99.5 mph) - 8.4
0-200 kph (124 mph) - N/A
1km from standing - 22.1
Max speed - 190


I think the difference in the driving experience between 996 and 993 is down to reduced noise, smoother ride and easier controls.
Whether you like this or not is personal preference. But the evolution of the car and it's abilities can't be knocked.
 

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