Windscreen

[Peter Empson]

Hi Oli,
If it has stopped raining when I get home I'll see if I can photograph how mine is done from the inside (I have no A pillar trim to remove, it's far too heavy []). The external rubber trim round the outside of the screen can be lifted with a finger nail so you can inspect underneath it very easily. I'd wager a fairly large percentage of 944's have corrosion setting in under this trim (after all most cars are probably on their 2nd or 3rd screen by now, but I have also heard it can be caused by the trim/trapped dirt rubbing away at the paint as well).

 

[Peter Empson]

Oli, I've just had a look and there's really nothing to photograph, there's a tiny bit of black mastic visible on the inside but otherwise there's just a rubber seal and that's all.

The maker is S-C, as is the one on the 944S. Thinking back I believe I was told there were two makes by Autoglass who were due to replace my screen the first time around, but their inability to get a screen within a week, then found it was scratched and tinted (I specifically didn't want a tint) made me look for alternatives. So based on this I guess there's a pretty high chance that this nugget of wisdom maybe incorrect as well.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I had my screen done by Autoglass under the insurance without any issues. I did tell the tale years ago - the Manager told me he was bringing in a "competent" fitter specially, which did beg the question....[8|]

I think there's a bit of a mountain out of a molehill here. Why is a car designed back before 1985 (and a half) so much more complicated than anything since? What we are looking at is a job that you want done with a little extra care, rather than a difficult job.

Mine was done in the workshop, but it was in winter and likely to be cold and wet. If you're happy to have it done at the roadside then fine - we had my van and the Legacy done at home. Just that I didn't want the job cancelled because I had an MOT looming. What I'd suggest is to be very nice to the man, or woman [&:]. Make them a cup of tea, explain how the car is a treasured classic. You'd like to see the screen out, to check for early signs of corrosion, so please don't worry about me watching you. How do you get the old screen out without damaging the paint and causing future problems? You get the picture. []

I've always found that most people who work for the large motoring organisations like the AA, Autoglass etc. are always under pressure and a bit "jobsworthy". They actually tend to be car enthusiasts, and if you make them feel that they are helping you they will really appreciate doing a job that's valued for a change.

 

[zcacogp]

Peter,

Thanks for looking, and thanks particularly for your input. I have had a quick gander at mine and concluded that there was nothing to see either - even less actually as mine still has the interior trims on. Perhaps this is how and why bad fittings go un-noticed; there is lots to hide behind.

Paul, I suspect I have read comments from you before about fitting windscreens - some of what you say sounds familiar. It all sounds very sensible, thank you. The mountains and molehills comment especially. I think the angle you have is probably the good one - make friends with the chap (let's be honest, it will be chap, let's have none of that PC nonsense on here!) show genuine enthusiasm and ask him to do a nice job. That is surely the way forward. In fact, I may just take some photos of the job happening - A) they can then be posted up here, and B) it makes me look like even more of an enthusiast (/anorak!) who wants detailed history of his P&J.

I'll keep you posted with takes of happiness or woe tomorrow lunchtime. And yes, it is being done by the side of the road so I am praying it won't rain ...


Oli.

 

[tr7v8]

To answer a few comments here. Firstly Porsche were quite late to the party with bonded screens, I believe one of the first was the S3 XJ6 & the TR7 at around the same time, this would have been around 74-76. Why are they such a pain?Modern cars are built to incredibly tight tolerances. Cars of this period were not, they were clamped up & hand welded. Therefore windscreen apertures vary wildly. Also the windscreens being older may not be to the same tolerance as they were when new. Finally the fitters aren't doing these models every day & certainly won't have been "manufacturer trained" All of these items add to the reasons why some of the fitting isn't 100%.these days.

 

[zcacogp]

Thanks Jim .... just as I was persuading myself that there would be no drama, after Paul's "Mountains and Molehills" comment ... []

Interesting though - I didn't know the TR7 had a bonded screen. In fact, I didn't know anything had a bonded screen until the late '80's. Golfs had the rubber push-fit arrangements until the Mk3, which was about 1992. (But then Golfs never were at the cutting-edge of technology.)


Oli.

 

[zcacogp]

Ha! Well, it's game off for now - the fitter just came 'round, and said it wasn't going to happen today because it was raining AND the new windscreen had been damaged when they placed it into his van! Apparently the aerial connection was pulled off the screen so it is not usable.

However, I did gently quiz him on whether he was familiar with doing the screens on a 944, and whether he had done any before. He said that yes, he had done several on both 944's and 968's, and they weren't hard but were a long job. I probed him about the job itself, and he described something that was very similar to the Porsche Factory Manual job description, right down to using a hooked knife to cut the old screen out and taking the inside trims off ... in short, I was very pleased as it sounded like about as good an answer as I could have hoped for.

So I have specifically said I want him to do the fitting, at another time. We have booked Wednesday. I'll post up the experience here ...


Oli.

 

[944 LIL]

Oli
I having mine done tomorrow - by Autoglass.
Could you send me the Factory Manual pages via email.
Will respond to your PM tomorrow - have been away skiing for the week.
I have not done all your softening up work - so will just have to do the stroppy customer if anything goes wrong. I'll definitely start with the Paul motoring classic / friend / cup of tea routine...
Just hope I don't get an apprentice on their first week....
Are you going to the Cotswold Event?

 

[zcacogp]

Colin,

Some people seem to swear by Autoglass, some people use them as a curse word ... generally they sound like one of the better, but that said, it's all down to the fitter you get. Hope it goes well.

Manual pages are from the manual on Rick Cannell's website (documents which you should have on your hard drive anyway as they are so useful!) Have a look here:

http://www.cannell.co.uk/Manuals.htm

... and look at the seconds section down. Windscreen details are in Volume 3 (body), pages 268ish and onwards.

I don't remember the PM! Sorry!

No, not going to the cotswold event. (I am still a mere 'Guest of the club', and used my one-free-event pass last year!)


Oli.

 

[Guest]

Oli
I dont want to be a scare-merchant but I had my screen replaced in 2001 by these cowboys from Belfast. My car was at a friends garage in Eglinton. The fitter came down and first of all damaged the pillar trims (which are still the same []) taking the screen out, then put the new screen in without the rubber - meaning there was a gap at the bottom of the screen.

There was air coming in at the bottom of the screen. I complained and the lads told me to take the car to Belfast to their depot where they would refit the screen. They of course broke the new screen and didnt have a replacement. They put sealers along the gap at the screen bottom to stop the air coming in.

They then got a new screen and came down. They done the job properly this time and said they would get me new pillar trims..... I am still waiting[]

BTW - the dash buzzed like anything after. I had to put a rubber seal in between the screen and dash to sort it..... Was this their doing also...? [8|]

 

[zcacogp]

Donal,

Thanks!

I specified at the time of ordering that I wanted a new rubber trim, and that was noted on the order.

I think the only thing to do is be polite to the guy and watch him carefully to make sure that things happen as they should ...


Oli.

 

[zcacogp]

Scotty,

Your post makes one assumption and falls over on one salient fact.

ASSUMPTION: That Mr Glass Man does a job I am pleased with!

FAILING: I am not a PCGB member, so I don't expect that anything I write could enter the hallowed pages of Porsche Post.

Having said that, good idea - I shall indeed take photos (either as an example of how to do it or how not to do it) and post them up on t'website.


Oli.

 

[zcacogp]

OK. Wednesday has come (and almost gone). And the windscreen fitter has come and definitely gone ...

And he fitted a new windscreen. And I *think* he has done a good job. He removed all the inside trim (side A-panel trims and the one across the top, with the light in it.) He removed the windscreen wipers. He put protective tape over everything. He seemed diligent. He called me out to draw my attention to an existing cut in the dashboard which he says was probably put there by a previous windscreen installer (I am confident he didn't do it - it had black sealant over it which was old and dry.)

I took a couple of photos - not as many as I had hoped, as I was in a teleconference for much of the morning. But they are here:

With protective tape:

More tape:

Starting to come out (I watched this process. He had a small knife - like a short stubby hook, with the blade sticking out about 1cm from the side. This was dug into the old rubber seal around the windscreen and run around the edge, cutting the old seal and the glue holding it all together, and allowing the screen to be lifted out. He was careful not to scratch the aperture, but I could see how a bit of carelessness could cause major damage. I also looked carefully all the way 'round the aperture, and there was no rust there anywhere.)

Photo:

All the way out - big hole:

Removing old trim:

The newly-fitted 'screen looks like the old one - it appears to be flush (is not proud of the bodywork anywhere), and looks to be as it should. But then I am not sure if I would spot a problem. I haven't driven the car since it was fitted, and it hasn't rained, so I don't know whether it is waterproof or whether there is wind noise.

I DO have a couple of questions, which I would be grateful if someone would mind checking on their own cars.

1. In this picture:

... I have highlighted two things.

- The arrow. Points to the end of the rubber trim that goes 'round the screen. It seems to end in two tails (one each side), which go nowhere. They are about an inch long and just flap around in the panel at the top of the bonnet. Is this normal? Should the trim go along the bottom of the windscreen? (I don't think it did on the old one, but am not 100% sure.) Should it tuck into something to stop it from flapping around?

- The ring is 'round a cover plate, over the aeriel connection for the radio. This isn't sitting quite right, and the connection for the aeriel (where it goes into the windscreen) is visible - the small coppery-brown bit in the middle. Is this simply that the cover is not fitted quite straight, or is the cover not fitted straight symptomatic of the fact that the windscreen is not fitted right?

And another one ... in this picture:

... what does the block in the middle do? The one with the hex-insert bolt head in the middle of it? I ask because it is loose - the block wobbles when you ... er ... wobble it with your fingers. There is another one on the other side and it is equally loose. Is this relevant?

All answers welcomed, thanks.


Oli.

 

[Frenchy]

The rubber is fine as is the aerial cover,the blocks with the hex key are windscreen related but i am not sure what,after tonight that screen will not move anywhere after the mastic has gone off.
Windscreen looks fine

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Interesting. I have what could only be described as excess rubber trim on one side of mine. As it's not attached to anything, it has gradually worked it's way up the screen when on the motorway and can't be a good thing.

Why not cut it off flush? [8|]

 

[zcacogp]

James,

Thanks for your reassurance. The screen seems fine - having driven it this morning (first time since fitting) there is no wind noise and all seems well. Haven't really tested it for leakproofness, but I used the washer jets and nothing appeared in the cabin! [] However the aeriel cover doesn't look right to me - the connection looks fragile and vulnerable. Are you sure it should look like this?

Paul,

Flapping rubber ... yes, it looks odd to me. I have read (can't remember where - some forum somewhere I think) that the windscreen rubber is the same as used on a 993, but the 993 is a slightly larger screen and therefore the rubber needs to be cut off shorter for the 944. Which may explain what is in the photo, and what you see on your car; the fitters simply don't cut it off as short as they might, and the end is left to flap.

What do you mean when you say "it has gradually worked it's way up the screen when on the motorway"? You make it sound like the loose end is progressively peeling back from the screen. Surely not the case?


Oli.

 

[James_G]

New seats looking very nice there Oli - are you pleased with the re-covering?

Meanwhile I will take some photos of my car later today for you and post them up. I have been working in that area myself as I have been trying to remove the top of the wiper mechanism so I can replace the big plastic fan cover.

Cheers

James

 

[zcacogp]

James,

Very sorry - I didn't find time last night to scan those geo settings for you. I'll do it tonight. I hope you aren't holding off going to a geo centre while waiting ...

The seats are a great improvement over the standard ones. In combination with the castor mounts, they really make the car push you around - less slop in the steering, and the seats push that extra responsiveness home on your sides - it's great! The re-covering is pretty poor tho'. I'm not very happy, but it has been back once (posted, as the people are in Leicestershire) and I think I'm just going to have to live with it. If they were up the road I'd be back there repeatedly until I was happy, but at £30-odd each time I can't return them too often. (ETA: Look at the wrinkles in the top of the right-hand-side of the drivers' seat in the first "tape" picture to see what I mean.)

Back to the subject matter - thanks, some photos would be great. (I'll swap them for a scan of the geo settings!) It sounds like you are with Ma and Pa for a week's worth of hands on Porsche-work. I envy you!


Oli.

 

[944 LIL]

Oli

Mine was done on Monday too - not by Autoglass, but by National Windscreens.

The A pillars didn't come off - they were already stuck solid !

I wasn't treated to Masking tape, but I have to say I'm very pleased - oddly enough I have exactly the same issue with the aerial connection and rubber - the aerial which looks too exposed and fragile and the rubber overhangs by an inch either side. However, I didn't get new rubber so its been like that for a while... and isn't going to change soon.

I've given a good blast with a hosepipe and its dry and there is no wind coming in anywhere.

For the record the fitter was a guy called George Wakefield from National Windscreens Slough depot. He stuck a National Windscreens tax holder on the new screen - I'm sufficiently pleased (and relieved) thats its staying.

Calipers, disks and pads tomorrow.... so only 15 or so more tasks to go. Wealth well and truely damaged.

 

[James_G]

Oli

As promised here are some photos of the areas you had concerns over from my car.

Firstly, I have that trailing piece of rubber on the driver's side, but it's retained under the front wing. However my car has had new wings during it's life, so it was probably tucked under there to keep it out of the way.

Next, the aerial connection isn't visible but the cover is pushed right up and over it. Pulling the cover back shows the connection, so a simple cover re-adjustment for yours I think would be fine.

However the rubber trim has been cut to length on the passenger side, which looks neater. Never noticed this variance before (too busy underneath probably!). Makes me think it's had a new screen at some time.

As for the square blocks, they are both hard up against the bottom of the screen and they don't move around. As previously mentioned, they are probably there to provide some support.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/cherry_chariot/Scuttle_4.jpg


If it helps, here's a shot of the base of the windscreen from my BMW, which shows that the rubber trim has been cut to length and I haven't had any problems with wind noise etc, etc.

Hope that helps

Cheers

James