The 928 motor won't fit without major tube chassis mods. If you wanted to keep it like a 'kissing cousin' you could do the i5 Audi or I know of a guy in the US who is putting in a VR6 motor from a Golf. The LS series motors really do fit very well. They sit back in the engine bay and are almost the same weight. This is the path I would be heading down if I hadn't sunk so much time and $ into the i4.
6.0 Litre V8 Ls2 into 944 Turbo
- Thread starter andye
- Start date
pauljmcnulty
Active member
Gawd, don't start the "I'll be running a 1000BHP 944" thread to rival Brett's ramblings! [
][]I love this idea, forget the "stuffing the wrong engine into the 944" arguement. To me, it's more about whether the car is actually a track toy, in which case is it a GT3-rivalling Porsche for about half the price of an Atom? Or, is it a road 944 with the performance of a Corvette? The only issue with the recent 'Vettes is their unruly handling, largely down to too much power through dangerously large tyres that make it hopeless for us mere mortals. Take the engine that everyone agrees is sublime, combine it with what's generally regarded as one of the best-handling chassis of all time and you've got to be on to a winner.
Tam Lin
New member
I must say I am sooo tempted by this. If we hadn't just bought a house..(anyone know an oak floor specialist in the Reading area [])
Having had the opportunity of an extended test drive in a Promax/Monkfish 6.0L Holden, the whole concept of that power with the suspension and brake bits that I've learned a bit about in the last few years is very tempting. The car would have to be black, though. And probably converted to LPG.
]) Having had the opportunity of an extended test drive in a Promax/Monkfish 6.0L Holden, the whole concept of that power with the suspension and brake bits that I've learned a bit about in the last few years is very tempting. The car would have to be black, though. And probably converted to LPG.
It sounds like it would/could be a hell of a conversion, that's for sure. (How 6.0 litres and roughly double the horsepower match the fuel economy of a 3.0 litre S2 is slightly beyond me, but I'll leave that one to the clever people on here.)
The snag is that building specials is never the route to long-term reliability. I put a 16v lump into a Mk1 Golf about 15 years ago, and did what was generally considered to be one of the neatest and best-engineered conversions on the scene at the time. Despite that being done with almost entirely factory parts, and all from the same family, it was still plagued with minor niggles. The notion of a wider mix of parts sources (Porsche, GM and custom-engineered) wouldn't bode well for reliability.
I guess the answer is to wait a while for such things to become more commonplace and learn from other people's work. I'd guess we are less than two years away from seeing an LS1 powered 944 at one of the club meets in the UK, and interest (and number of completed cars) will go up quite rapidly from that point.
Thinking a little more about the finances of doing such a thing; would the best starting point not be a turbo, but rather one of the Lux's we are seeing on the market for <£1000? How much of the extra technology (and cost) of the turbo would be used in such a conversion? Would a £1000 lux, with a big blacks conversion and bigger ARB's, and possibly a turbo gearbox (i.e. all the desirable bits you'd want from the turbo) not work out cheaper than a 951?
Oli.
The snag is that building specials is never the route to long-term reliability. I put a 16v lump into a Mk1 Golf about 15 years ago, and did what was generally considered to be one of the neatest and best-engineered conversions on the scene at the time. Despite that being done with almost entirely factory parts, and all from the same family, it was still plagued with minor niggles. The notion of a wider mix of parts sources (Porsche, GM and custom-engineered) wouldn't bode well for reliability.
I guess the answer is to wait a while for such things to become more commonplace and learn from other people's work. I'd guess we are less than two years away from seeing an LS1 powered 944 at one of the club meets in the UK, and interest (and number of completed cars) will go up quite rapidly from that point.
Thinking a little more about the finances of doing such a thing; would the best starting point not be a turbo, but rather one of the Lux's we are seeing on the market for <£1000? How much of the extra technology (and cost) of the turbo would be used in such a conversion? Would a £1000 lux, with a big blacks conversion and bigger ARB's, and possibly a turbo gearbox (i.e. all the desirable bits you'd want from the turbo) not work out cheaper than a 951?
Oli.
Good point about the suspension. But if you were spending this much on an engine, you'd want to be putting something like KWv3's on it anyway.
Wheels and tyres? Ditto.
Brakes - as mentioned in my last post.
It was more of a musing ... perhaps it would be cheaper to start with a Turbo after all.
Oli.
Wheels and tyres? Ditto.
Brakes - as mentioned in my last post.
It was more of a musing ... perhaps it would be cheaper to start with a Turbo after all.
Oli.
AndrewS
Member
The brakes on the 944 Turbo can already handle more than 250bhp. Customer cars (including Markk's 442bhp 944 turbo) are working well with moderate brake upgrades (either 928GTS/993 Turbo front callipers or 964/993 Carrera Cup callipers) and suspension upgrades (either coil over 968CS M030 or KW Variant 3).
My previous earlier 944 Turbo (422 bhp 2.8 that I sold in 2004) ran with standard M030 suspension and 993 Turbo (Big Red) callipers and 928GTS front brake rotors.
The LS2 equipped car will have slightly more weight at the front, but the weight distribution across both rear axles is calculated to only alter to 49/51 - hence this can be accommodated with moderate ride height / geometry changes to maintain handling balance and minimise rear end squat under hard acceleration.
Regards,
Andrew
sawood12
New member
I'm a real convert to the v8 in a 944 concept and to me £20k for a turnkey package sounds like a steal to me. Far, far cheaper than a 3.0ltr conversion (if done well you're looking at about £15k for the basic engine alone). I guess that £20k wont include any refurbing/upgrading of the base car though - I'd like to know that with an engine like that under the hood that the stock LSD has at least been refurbed (ideally binned and replaced with a better aftermarket item) and that the shell has had some checking out for corrosion and fixed where necessary. But, other than that a 944 with this much power and torque will be some piece of kit.
I think you could probably run an LS1 up to 400hp or so with fairly standard components. Having said that I would be looking to the brakes, suspension, drivetrain etc
to upgrade. The stock LSD isn't up to it either. I would think that if anyone is going to the trouble of putting in a 6L V8, it's not to toddle around the village. So assuming it's intended to be at least a track day based car I think you'd upgrade springs from those that come with the V3s as well. I'd be looking at Monoblocks too.
If you look at some of Tony G's videos you can see how different you drive one of these cars even on the track. It looks much 'lazier' in a sense as you drive on the
Torque not revs/boost. I just haven't shaken my addiction to those qualities. I enjoy changing gear more than 3 times around the track.
to upgrade. The stock LSD isn't up to it either. I would think that if anyone is going to the trouble of putting in a 6L V8, it's not to toddle around the village. So assuming it's intended to be at least a track day based car I think you'd upgrade springs from those that come with the V3s as well. I'd be looking at Monoblocks too.
If you look at some of Tony G's videos you can see how different you drive one of these cars even on the track. It looks much 'lazier' in a sense as you drive on the
Torque not revs/boost. I just haven't shaken my addiction to those qualities. I enjoy changing gear more than 3 times around the track.
sawood12
New member
Torque. At any given RPM and work rate the v8 will be producing more torque due to more pistons, so engine load will be less (load shared over more than one piston at any one time). Given that the gear ratio's are the same at any given speed the RPM will be the same so you need less throttle to achieve the same torque required to turn the gearbox - the engine will be under less load. At say 70mph in an S2 you might need to apply an inch or so of throttle, but with one of these v8's you'll probably be able to just tickling the throttle with the weight of your big toe, so the air in the manifold will be at a lower pressure so you're not sucking in twice the air into the engine therefore less fuel. Something along those lines though.
The only thing that would grate on me with one of these engines is 450 bhp out of 6 ltrs which is a measily 75bhp/ltr. Now i'm no eco-warrior but even that just seems wrong in this day and age to me!
>Ahem< Sc0tty is our resident ... purist. He has "Keep it original, chaps" tattooed on his forehead, so that people can see what's on his mind before he starts speaking ...
I'd imagine that for Sc0tty the concept of putting a V8 (and an american one at that!) into the front of a 944 is akin to painting over the sistine chapel with dulux. Or mixing Dom Perignon '79 with orange juice to make a nice bucks fizz ....
Am I right Sc0tty? []
Oli.
I'd imagine that for Sc0tty the concept of putting a V8 (and an american one at that!) into the front of a 944 is akin to painting over the sistine chapel with dulux. Or mixing Dom Perignon '79 with orange juice to make a nice bucks fizz ....
Am I right Sc0tty? [
]Oli.
Neil Haughey
New member
The engine is possibly the worst part of our car, it always was a weak link in the 944/968 package and is the biggest thing holding the car back from being a true classic as IMHO a great sports car needs an historically great engine. Maybe I am a long way from a purist, maybe after 10 years of ownership the "myth" of Porsche has worn of on me, one thing I can say for sure though is a 944 with a modern GM V8 in it will go like stink, sound utterly awesome and probably cost less in terms of engine maintenance then even a standard 944 lump.
pauljmcnulty
Active member
I'll say it again, I love this idea.
I never understand doing conversions the other way around; a Countach made out of fiberglass sitting on Cortina mechanicals is not a good thing, neither is a Ferrari look-alike butchered out of a 944. Taking a classic design and adding more modern mechanicals, however, is a great idea. Of course, there's always the argument that it should be a Porsche "family" engine, but why? People have been bolting Rover V8s into all sorts of cars for donkey's years, and the GM V8 is a future classic engine itself. What you're creating here is a Corvette that goes round corners. A very good thing IMO.
I never understand doing conversions the other way around; a Countach made out of fiberglass sitting on Cortina mechanicals is not a good thing, neither is a Ferrari look-alike butchered out of a 944. Taking a classic design and adding more modern mechanicals, however, is a great idea. Of course, there's always the argument that it should be a Porsche "family" engine, but why? People have been bolting Rover V8s into all sorts of cars for donkey's years, and the GM V8 is a future classic engine itself. What you're creating here is a Corvette that goes round corners. A very good thing IMO.
Suffolk944
Moderator
Yes at £20k (assuming I had the money!) I think would probably baulk at the idea given what other machinery is out there for the price, though I guess that does include the car. £7.5k-£10k plus using your own car makes more sense to me. Am not too hung up on the GM engine in a Porsche thing ,though wouldn't do it unless my current engine went bang.
Possibly one day will get my V8 fix by buying a car which was intended for one all along.
Possibly one day will get my V8 fix by buying a car which was intended for one all along.
AndrewS
Member
Hi All,
The proposed cost of a turn key warranted car has to be put into perspective. If the cost is £20,000 GBP - what are you getting? Effectively you're getting a refurbished car with a new warranted LS2 engine with everything fully functional and engineered as it should be. It's a one off cost with no other additional fees, no issues or problems to fix - which can arise after major conversions.
£20k = 450bhp, 1350kg, 0-60 in 4 secs, 180+mph in a car with 49/51 weight distribution, sublime handling and exceptional road holding.
Compare that to a 100,000 mile 911 (996) Turbo or a 2002 Audi RS6 (High Mileage) or BMW M3 (V8).
Ultimately a kit could be offered (for those that want to do it themselves), but because of the fitting aspect being out of the suppliers control - no warranty could be given.
What we all really need is to see one. []
Regards,
Andrew
The proposed cost of a turn key warranted car has to be put into perspective. If the cost is £20,000 GBP - what are you getting? Effectively you're getting a refurbished car with a new warranted LS2 engine with everything fully functional and engineered as it should be. It's a one off cost with no other additional fees, no issues or problems to fix - which can arise after major conversions.
£20k = 450bhp, 1350kg, 0-60 in 4 secs, 180+mph in a car with 49/51 weight distribution, sublime handling and exceptional road holding.
Compare that to a 100,000 mile 911 (996) Turbo or a 2002 Audi RS6 (High Mileage) or BMW M3 (V8).
Ultimately a kit could be offered (for those that want to do it themselves), but because of the fitting aspect being out of the suppliers control - no warranty could be given.
What we all really need is to see one. [
]Regards,
Andrew
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