944 Turbo S Engine Rebuild Thread
- Thread starter Eldavo
- Start date
Don’t think anyone other than Capricorn Nikasils the blocks. Hartech used to do a Nikasil liner but they don’t any more.
Darton sleeves are about £1k plus fitting, even then I wouldn’t really want to be going for wet liners and would prefer to stick to dry liners. Westwood do a 944/968 specific wet liner but they also do a stock dry liner that is the right overall size but too long so needs cutting down as per the Subaru liners. Cost for 4 of these delivered is £260 and is what I’ll be going with. One of the guys who races both a 944 Turbo and 928 uses these exact liners with Wössner pistons so it’s a race-proven combination that has lasted.
Not sure what my machine shop are going to charge me yet - I’m hoping that we agree some favourable terms given the issues (admittedly not their fault) that I’ve faced. I do know of a company in Bradford who will fit liners for £100 per cylinder - so for under £1k you could have a knackered block sleeved and ready to accept any pistons. Pretty sure that the cost of an Alusil overbore and lapping, etc. was about half that with my machine shop, though you’ll need to find compatible pistons
Not sure who EMC use for their work, I think they may do the machine work in house as there are varying viewpoints on how they freeze the liners. I’ve found Alex to be nothing but helpful though.
Darton sleeves are about £1k plus fitting, even then I wouldn’t really want to be going for wet liners and would prefer to stick to dry liners. Westwood do a 944/968 specific wet liner but they also do a stock dry liner that is the right overall size but too long so needs cutting down as per the Subaru liners. Cost for 4 of these delivered is £260 and is what I’ll be going with. One of the guys who races both a 944 Turbo and 928 uses these exact liners with Wössner pistons so it’s a race-proven combination that has lasted.
Not sure what my machine shop are going to charge me yet - I’m hoping that we agree some favourable terms given the issues (admittedly not their fault) that I’ve faced. I do know of a company in Bradford who will fit liners for £100 per cylinder - so for under £1k you could have a knackered block sleeved and ready to accept any pistons. Pretty sure that the cost of an Alusil overbore and lapping, etc. was about half that with my machine shop, though you’ll need to find compatible pistons
Not sure who EMC use for their work, I think they may do the machine work in house as there are varying viewpoints on how they freeze the liners. I’ve found Alex to be nothing but helpful though.
blade7
Well-known member
Only car engine I've had with dry liners was in my BMW E36 328. That had a replacement factory short engine due to the Nikasil issue. Never heard of any liner issues on those engines. If I was having liners fitted I'd want the block heated and the liners chilled. Probably a locating ridge in the bottom and top of the block, and the liners sitting 0.002-3" proud of the deck.
Dan944t
New member
Eldavo said:Don’t think anyone other than Capricorn Nikasils the blocks. Hartech used to do a Nikasil liner but they don’t any more.
Darton sleeves are about £1k plus fitting, even then I wouldn’t really want to be going for wet liners and would prefer to stick to dry liners. Westwood do a 944/968 specific wet liner but they also do a stock dry liner that is the right overall size but too long so needs cutting down as per the Subaru liners. Cost for 4 of these delivered is £260 and is what I’ll be going with. One of the guys who races both a 944 Turbo and 928 uses these exact liners with Wössner pistons so it’s a race-proven combination that has lasted.
Not sure what my machine shop are going to charge me yet - I’m hoping that we agree some favourable terms given the issues (admittedly not their fault) that I’ve faced. I do know of a company in Bradford who will fit liners for £100 per cylinder - so for under £1k you could have a knackered block sleeved and ready to accept any pistons. Pretty sure that the cost of an Alusil overbore and lapping, etc. was about half that with my machine shop, though you’ll need to find compatible pistons
Not sure who EMC use for their work, I think they may do the machine work in house as there are varying viewpoints on how they freeze the liners. I’ve found Alex to be nothing but helpful though.
id have to look through my receipts, ( but i’d rather not!??) but i’m sure i paid around £1150 for westwood to make me what they called racing liners , i’ll add photo below of them fitted by john at serdi uk.
i don’t think EMC machine there own blocks in house ? but don’t quote me on that....when i had my pistons with them years ago along with my short block that had a split right through the cylinder no4 i don’t recall seeing any type of machinery like that there? dont think they wanted to take my job on as i ended up picking all my its up maybe 6months later and doing the engine rebuild myself and getting westwood to make me the linners up and the rest is history.
i remember the EMC guys were very nice guys though but very busy as i believe they raced as well as done jobs, we went through allot of engines they had to take a look at on the shelf , hence don’t think they had the time to deal with mine.
i recall they used and rated the JE pistons ( is that what there called?) and think they used mayle con rods but it was a good few years back now! if my pistons weren’t damaged due to over deternation and having x2 odd number on the bottom conrod caps, i wouldn’t have gone the custom route, but John at serdi recommended me doing so , so he took my conrods to a race manifacturer in Milan who he was doing business with at the time and they made race parts for porsche models , but never a 944. they made me a one off bespoke conrod set that i believe was 200grama lighter than standard ? but would have to check in my build records. i remember it was extremely light compared to standard and i was really supprised by how much. I used IASA pistons and rings which John adviced was a perfect match, so went with that.
The rods came with APR studs
I wish i didn’t have to go this route but i was also forced into it if i wanted to retain engine numbers for what its worth??? ( in all honesty i dont see it worth much as i won’t sell the car)
Wish i could have bought all standard stuff and could have as i think it cost me around £8000 in parts and johns machining costs in the end. i built the entire engine even asked John not to rebuild my head at all as wanted to do a port job on it myself before i rebuilt it.
i hope all goes well with the pistons ??????
https://imgur.com/a/LaitQMW
https://imgur.com/a/qawB6ur
blade7
Well-known member
The 2.7 engine I bought was stored at EMC. They were really friendly, and took the time to load it into the back of my car for me, which they had no reason to do. The guy I bought it from was heading back to NZ, and had his Turbo S for sale too. I think he wanted £6/7k for it, and it was hanging around at that. I'd have bought it, but it was over in Ireland. I think he shipped it home in the end.
As I’m all about that originality [8|] I took the original block down to AMAC in Northallerton for it to be sleeved this week. Wössner UNCOATED 100.0mm pistons arrived with them and I ordered some Westwood dry cylinder liners for a Perkins Phaser Diesel truck engine .
They‘re the perfect dimensions for a 2.5 engine, just need cutting down to size, they’re dirt cheap (about £50 each) and I know someone using them with Wössner pistons in his 944T and 928 race cars.
Machine shop have lots of experience of sleeving blocks (they had 16 Subaru blocks there for sleeving for two of the main Subaru specialists in the country), they’re going to machine a step in the bottom of the cylinder and sit it on there so it can’t drop.
Here are the liners:
.They‘re the perfect dimensions for a 2.5 engine, just need cutting down to size, they’re dirt cheap (about £50 each) and I know someone using them with Wössner pistons in his 944T and 928 race cars.
Machine shop have lots of experience of sleeving blocks (they had 16 Subaru blocks there for sleeving for two of the main Subaru specialists in the country), they’re going to machine a step in the bottom of the cylinder and sit it on there so it can’t drop.
Here are the liners:
As I’d saved a few quid I splashed out and bought some new conrods too. I already have the forged RARST ones that came in the engine from the factory - sorry PSH they weren’t "86 only” []
Did some research and it seemed that the Molnar rods from the states were very well thought of and a cheaper alternative to Carillos (in fact Tom Molnar used to work for Carillo before setting up on his own). A bit more digging lead me to find out that Molnar buy their rods in a semi-finished state from a company in China and do final machining in the USA (Then they can slap their "Proudly manufactured in the USA - Yeehah” sticker on).
Turns out that the company that makes them, BridgeWay, also do a fully finished rod themselves and they’re under £500 a set from Part Box in the U.K. - they’re also the conrod of choice for a well known U.K. Transaxle Engine building company [:-]
I‘been had them weighed and inspected by the machine shop and they’re very happy with them, come with ARP bolts, are 671g each including the bolts And have nice touches such as the rod and cap are matching serial numbered so they don’t get mixed up.
]Did some research and it seemed that the Molnar rods from the states were very well thought of and a cheaper alternative to Carillos (in fact Tom Molnar used to work for Carillo before setting up on his own). A bit more digging lead me to find out that Molnar buy their rods in a semi-finished state from a company in China and do final machining in the USA (Then they can slap their "Proudly manufactured in the USA - Yeehah” sticker on).
Turns out that the company that makes them, BridgeWay, also do a fully finished rod themselves and they’re under £500 a set from Part Box in the U.K. - they’re also the conrod of choice for a well known U.K. Transaxle Engine building company [:-]
I‘been had them weighed and inspected by the machine shop and they’re very happy with them, come with ARP bolts, are 671g each including the bolts And have nice touches such as the rod and cap are matching serial numbered so they don’t get mixed up.
dlknight said:
Ta - thought I had it right first time around but how was I to know Wössner were facing a global piston coating failure. I suppose it’s SO 2020 though!
My machine shop is about an hour South from me, so I try not to go unless I have to (it’s about 15 mins from one of my hospital accounts but CV-19 has me working from home). They get lots of things arriving and leaving on pallets though [
]
blade7
Well-known member
Don't nearly all liners sit on a step in the block? Obviously alloy is softer than iron, and it's not unheard of for the iron liner to sink still further into the alloy block with heat cycling. I've heard of liners sitting on steps at the top and bottom of the block to try and counteract this. Also some machine shops leave the liners sitting a thou or 2 above the deck. Then there's chilling the liners and heating the block, to allow an interference fit. Perhaps your machine shop has successfully lined plenty of 944 blocks, but if they haven't, lining flat 4 Suburu blocks wouldn't sell them to me.Eldavo said:
Eldavo said:
Thats interesting - so you can use an NA head on the Turbo? - I was watching some auctions on ebay for 944 turbo heads and there was a few other things coming up like inlet manifolds.
Was kind of thinking I could build up a new head and then swap it over at some point but other projects on the car need the direction of funds really instead of having an extra head...
blade7 said:
blade7 said:
They have lots of experience of liners and Alusil work - they’ve fitted plenty of liners to 944 engines too, more in race applications and Alusil for street but happy to do either.
These have a flange at the top and will sit on a step too, you fit them by putting the block in an oven and chilling the liners, just don’t use liquid nitrogen, etc. as there are issues with ice crystals forming between the interference fit.
At the moment, their boring machine is running 8 hours a day, 5 days a week - they’re busy! Just done a full build for one of the executives from KS, given that they make the blocks for Porsche (And others) . . . I know I’m in safe hands.
Yes, N/A Head is a straight swap (you need to swap the valve train over obviously). The ceramic exhaust liners retain the heat in the crossover to help the Cat, etc. Once you’re pushing considerably more air and HP (plus not running a cat) then the ceramic liners are somewhat superfluous.
Eldavo said:Sounds like you’re watching my eBay listings [
Yes, N/A Head is a straight swap (you’ll need to swap the valve train over obviously). The ceramic exhaust liners retain the heat in the crossover to help the Cat, etc. Once you’re pushing considerably more air and HP (plus not running a cat) then the ceramic liners are somewhat superfluous.
Thanks Eldavo - possibly
Well cat bypass is on my list over jobs possibly over the winter so will keep that in mind... would love the hayward and scott or fabspeed bypass but at almost £1000 I think probably wiser to take the old system to a local exhaust specialist and get them to fabricate one for me? Can get a wideband bung installed too at the same time
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